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Post by Avogadro on Mar 18, 2006 11:24:18 GMT -5
"You've heard the teachings, oh son of a Brahman, and good for you that you've thought about it thus deeply. You've found a gap in it, an error. You should think about this further. But be warned, oh seeker of knowledge, of the thicket of opinions and of arguing about words. There is nothing to opinions, they may be beautiful or ugly, smart or foolish, everyone can support them or discard them. But the teachings, you've heard from me, are no opinion, and their goal is not to explain the world to those who seek knowledge. They have a different goal; their goal is salvation from suffering. This is what Gotama teaches, nothing else."
"There is a path in front of you, you are destined for, the gods are awaiting you."
Speaking of rivers "It is this what you mean, isn't it: that the river is everywhere at once, at the source and at the mouth, at the waterfall, at the ferry, at the rapids, in the sea, in the mountains, everywhere at once, and that there is only the present time for it, not the shadow of the past, not the shadow of the future?"
Then life: "Nothing was, nothing will be; everything is, everything has existence and is present."
The eastern ways of thinking are so enthralling. Isnt duelism a beautiful thing? I live in Canada and unfortunately in America much like Europe we tend to have "one sides stories and ways of thought" I do enjoy ready eastern spirituality at times but admit to find it easier to go with what I was raised with.
As for Noah's ark, I most certainly didnt wish to offend anyone on the matter. My apologies.
Siddhartha shall be read once again soon when I have time, it is on my shelves but until today I hadnt peaked in its covers in years and we all know our opinions/outlook may change over time.
"When someone is searching," said Siddhartha, "then it might easily happen that the only thing his eyes still see is that what he searches for, that he is unable to find anything, to let anything enter his mind, because he always thinks of nothing but the object of his search, because he has a goal, because he is obsessed by the goal. Searching means: having a goal. But finding means: being free, being open, having no goal. You, oh venerable one, are perhaps indeed a searcher, because, striving for your goal, there are many things you don't see, which are directly in front of your eyes."
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Post by archon on Mar 18, 2006 20:43:32 GMT -5
I've just recently read it and found it brilliant. The chapters are spread into two parts; the first 4 chapters can be related to the 4 Noble truths and the last 8 chapters (part 2) can be related to the eightfold path.
The story is a beautiful one.
When Siddhartha encounters the Buddha, he finds a fault in the Buddha's teachings - a contradiction that the Buddha acknowledges but has no answer for.
Siddhartha, after living his life, realizes that people take many paths in life, but yearn for the same destination. The predestination that you think of is perhaps not the predestination that is actually 'out' there.
Unity is found in the final destination, not in the path
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 18, 2006 22:44:40 GMT -5
Yes and as the teacher mentions it is not the fault that shoudl be focused upon but the purpose of the learning and growth involved. Darn I will read it again soon, read it 9 years ago in college and I am sure I woudl enjoy it much more now that I am more open to the concepts the book holds. Thanks for bringing it up, I'll read in during my april vacation Also love the fact that they continued to "Seek" even when they were sure of the answers. By not being complacent they left themselves open for an constant evolution of thought, once knowledge was known it could be "assimilated/internalised" in order to be both personalised and deepened. By the teacher changing his vies of the world he foudn it to be a better place. It was his perception of the facts that mattered. A much more peotic way of saying "seeing the glass half full instead of half empty" Archon can you give us a few quotes you foudn to pertain to this thread so that we may pick it and reflect upon it?
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Post by whiplash on Mar 19, 2006 9:34:50 GMT -5
Canadians go on vacation in April?
Why don't you do it in Summer?
That runs from July 15 to August 1.
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 19, 2006 9:44:04 GMT -5
Cause Im at the bottom of the nursing pool in my community. I relative "noob" so to speak. This makes it that I get vacation in the holes left to sign up in
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 19, 2006 18:29:22 GMT -5
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 19, 2006 23:38:43 GMT -5
Naw a book is meant to be held
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 20, 2006 13:16:41 GMT -5
Agree, which is why I'd just bought it from amazon when I put up the post
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 25, 2006 17:19:32 GMT -5
Sidhe and Avo, have you ever read "Siddhartha" by Hermann Hesse? It's a brillaint work of art about Buddhism which subtley talks about free will and predeterminism. What it discusses in the book is what Avo is proposing, that free will and fate can co-exist. I can see exactly what you are arguing Sidhe - and agree that on a first glance look at God and that the three Big O's, rule out free will. However, this book finds a unity between the two. Please tell me if you have read the book so I can continue. I believe we both have read it now, if you wish to discuss it feel free
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Post by Assédix on Mar 26, 2006 5:25:15 GMT -5
Does that book have any bearing at all on the question of predetermination vs free will? Or doesn't that matter as long as it reduces our suffering?
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Post by Sidhe on Apr 1, 2006 5:41:27 GMT -5
No not really as far as I can tell but it does have a really neat philosophical message.
It's along the lines of The Dali Lamas quote:
If someone told me they knew the truth then I would shoot them.
Which essentially means that the attainment of Nirvana by extension of the self is the way to go, not Nirvana attained by the extension of the 8 fold path or anything else in Budhist tennant.
It's a bit more complicated than that though. Read it it's very good.
Religion always ruins any discussion about free will because under the tennents of the three big religions(although I think Islamics have a more philosophical aproach to omniscience as do the Jews, christians are pretty much slavishly devoted to the fact that God is omniscient though in pretty narrow terms that pretty much make existence a meaningless freefall into path A that you can never change) free will can't and doesn't exist, despite Gods assurances to the contrary, which is probably why Islam and Judaism have found the dichotomy so fascinating and have tried to solve this problem or inconsistency in religous tennant.
This sort of thing is probably why they forced Socrates to poison himself, swallowing anything was better than swallowing the certain knowledge that if the Gods control fate then your doomed to the same fate whatever you do.
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Post by Assédix on Apr 3, 2006 14:03:02 GMT -5
Which essentially means that the attainment of Nirvana by extension of the self is the way to go, not Nirvana attained by the extension of the 8 fold path or anything else in Budhist tennant. That's precisely what I read in it, many years ago. I was just surprised to see it come up in this discussion, and wondering if maybe I had missed out on some hidden meaning about determinism vs free will . . . Religion always ruins any discussion about free will because under the tennents of the three big religions(although I think Islamics have a more philosophical aproach to omniscience as do the Jews, christians are pretty much slavishly devoted to the fact that God is omniscient though in pretty narrow terms that pretty much make existence a meaningless freefall into path A that you can never change) free will can't and doesn't exist, despite Gods assurances to the contrary, which is probably why Islam and Judaism have found the dichotomy so fascinating and have tried to solve this problem or inconsistency in religous tennant. That's one sentence?! You could have cut it short by simply putting a period just after "discussion" in line 1, imho that rather more concise statement would have covered everything we need to know about the religion issue
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Post by Sidhe on Apr 3, 2006 14:39:37 GMT -5
Agreed but these religious folks like a reason why their religion has turned them into zombies controlled by God, if they think logically about what omniscience entails. Which is why I think God in the bible's omniscience appears to change from the Old to the new testament, in the old he does know everything, but sometimes it appears stuff is hidden from him( amore rational philosophical approach) by the time you get to 2000 years after the new, he now pretty much knows everything at any time or moment, future past present, from now till the end of creation. This absolutely destroys free will, more surely than a gun shot wound to the head kills brain cells. Religion sucks in philosophy - a succinct statement - their are you happy now
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