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Post by whiplash on Mar 8, 2006 13:28:36 GMT -5
Behavioral geography is an approach to Human Geography that examines human behavior using a disaggregate approach. Behavioral Geographers focus on the cognitive processes underlying spatial reasoning, decision making, and behavior.
Because of the name it is often incorrectly assumed to have its roots in behaviourism. Due to the emphasis on cognition, this is clearly not the case.
The cognitive processes include environmental perception and cognition, wayfinding, the construction of cognitive maps, place attachment, the development of attitudes about space and place, decisions and behavior based on imperfect knowledge of one's environs, and numerous other topics.
The approach adopted in behavioral geography is closely related to that of psychology, but draws on research findings from a multitude of other disciplines including economics, sociology, anthropology, transportation planning, and many others.
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Post by Assédix on Mar 8, 2006 19:36:22 GMT -5
It is proposed that enzymes play a crucial role in maintaining quantum coherence ... Enzymes provide a shielded environment where quantum coherence of the reactants is maintained. ... Enzymes are able to create superposed states of chemically distinct molecules. ... quantum mechanics automatically produces a superposition state as the lowest energy equilibrium state. ... It is important to note that these distances are much bigger than the Compton wavelengths of the particles, yet delocalisation is common and maintains quantum coherence. Although I much prefer an entire cat to a mere protein molecule, I rather like the concept . Would be very spectacular indeed if someone could actually demonstrate that long range quantum coherence governs "macro"scopic cellular events (a guaranteed Nobel prize imo). Of course Christian fundementalists see sexuality as a choice not a trait If people could control there sexuality at least heterosexuals say could become homosexual and vice a versa I might take this suposition seriously, but since I can't wake up tomorrow and force myself to fancy men I rather dismiss them in the same way I dismiss the Intelligent Design & creationist crackpots. I'd say sexuality was part nurture and part nature. Some people are pretty much born gay though I'd imagine, just as some people are pretty much born straight? I was hoping we could keep the usual anachronisms out of this, but there's always someone volunteering to bring them up, isn't there? Yes there is very good evidence that homo/heterosexuality is determined by a combination of genetics and environment.
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Post by whiplash on Mar 8, 2006 20:31:44 GMT -5
Actually, all of this can be explained through an understanding of the Cassandra phenomenon. He/she who has superior insight into the events of the present can predict the future. However, after announcing said predictions, observers seeing the predictions come to pass will blame Cassandra for causing them to come about. Thusly, the messenger is killed not for delivering the message of warning but for the mistaken belief that he/she actually caused the events to occur.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 11, 2006 5:34:30 GMT -5
Well the fact that the quantum impinges on the conscious mind has to be taken into account, you can't just ignore that at the fundemental level our whole make up is obeying laws that not only can you not measure except in terms of probability, but that even looking at the fundementals destroys what your trying to measure so we can never see for sure what it is we're measuring? this chaos of superposition and decoherence at least opens up the possibility of free will, if you consider that our make up is as much ruled by chaos at the fundemental level as it is by classical laws at the macro level. And there's a good reason my avatar is a picture of Cassandra
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 16, 2006 6:41:25 GMT -5
Bringing God into the equation is fraught with danger. Prove god exists, then I will acknowledge we have free will well actually even though that's not certain As for choice leading to more choice there is of course always the idea that those choices weren't choices but a result of our programming choice may lead to seemingly another choice and on into an exponential number of choices but were they choices? If we have free will (essentially the ability to make a number of free choices) but how do we know this? Those choices are choices how can we tell? And if not we're not just following some path a---->A situation we have two choices but we will always pick choice x over y even if we think it was a choice and then again x over y at the next point and so on until we reach point A, seemingly we had a myriad of choices but did we really. Or did God know we were going to end up there anyway? He says that he knows what will happen to us in the end, how our life will progress? How does this give us free wil,l if we are destined to a predictable path that God already knows or that DNA programs us to obey?
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Post by Lestat on Mar 16, 2006 7:20:27 GMT -5
No Sidhe, u dont have free will. U dont want to post here but something dark and deep in your soul push u to post and u cant resist (as me to). Be macho man and try to resist on that temptation.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 17, 2006 14:21:12 GMT -5
Bringing God into the equation is fraught with danger. Prove god exists, then I will acknowledge we have free will well actually even though that's not certain As for choice leading to more choice there is of course always the idea that those choices weren't choices but a result of our programming choice may lead to seemingly another choice and on into an exponential number of choices but were they choices? If we have free will (essentially the ability to make a number of free choices) but how do we know this? Those choices are choices how can we tell? And if not we're not just following some path a---->A situation we have two choices but we will always pick choice x over y even if we think it was a choice and then again x over y at the next point and so on until we reach point A, seemingly we had a myriad of choices but did we really. Or did God know we were going to end up there anyway? He says that he knows what will happen to us in the end, how our life will progress? How does this give us free Will,l if we are destined to a predictable path that God already knows or that DNA programs us to obey? If you are asking those questions, then you did not understand my post, or "destined" means something different to you than it does to me. Knowledge of the future is not forcing of the future, nor does it cause or force a destiny. Knowledge of what another chooses with one's free will is not forcing the choice, nor forcing the excercise to be the outcome. Leaving God out of the discussion would indeed make an incomplete examination of the topic. Prove God does not exist, and I will drop it. As for me, I have personally dreamed many things that have then happened years later in exact and incredibly odd and intricate detail far too perfect to ignore years later, though I would never have thought it possible or never had thought I would choose what I did. This leaves me reason to believe that the future is knowable by what I shall call God. Yet, I hardly maintain that by him knowing it, it causes it. Just as association is not causation, neither is foreknowledge necessarily predestination. The causal relationship simply does not exist by having knowledge alone. If you are looking for a single-factor answer that says absolutely it is DNA and nothing else, or DNA and Environment and nothing else, good luck. My comments are to suggest that there are likely multiple factors interplaying, and more than just DNA and environment, though certainly they could have a role. And the lack of comparable evidence serves no further to support your theory than mine. Oddly enough I agree resorting to the purely material is really no way to judge the issue, from the scientific point of view it should be able to predict how someone will develop from DNA alone, or suggest it with great accuracy, but IMO there are just far too many unknowns like quantum mechanics(an inability to view matter in it's original form without destroying it's original form) that get in the way that aside the whole psychology issue, both environmental and "spiritual" appears to defy the rational too. I really dislike the Idea that God knows everything, in the Old Testament he didn't know absolutely everything at all, then the message got changed and now he somehow knows everything everywhere at every point in the universe. If God knows every choice you are going to make, why should he bother to guide you at all, since he knows precisely where you are going to end up anyway. And if He guides you in anyway then that is an infringement of your free will, you end up somewhere other than where you chose to be. Religious ideas just break down so often when it comes to philosophy which is also part of the danger I'm talking about, religion examined logically just has no logic, either in belief or in it's texts as a whole; God gave man 127 years to change in the Old Testament otherwise he would destroy the Earth with a flood, he offered them a choice change or face destruction, why give that choice if you already know what's going to happen. Why even bother? Jesus manages to talk God into sparing the Earth? How exactly? And why did God not see this in the beginning, how can he be angry about something he already knew would happen? There are plenty of examples of how God has no idea all the choices men will make in the Old Testament, he sees a good man and knows that he will be rewarded because of his righteousness, but he sees a wicked one and offers a deal, repent or suffer the consequences. Religion is riddled with these sorts of contradictions. It's not the Bible that is wrong exactly it's mans interpretation of what God is and that is at heart what the bible is. www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=363&letter=FThe Jews have a different interpretation of free will and discussed the issue frequently with discourse with Arabs. A good site if your interested
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Post by archon on Mar 17, 2006 14:27:24 GMT -5
From a friend:
"First and foremost, God loves us. We are his children. He knows the final outcome but he has to let us live our lives and use the freewill he gave us. God could very easily force us to bow down before him and worship him. He could make us love him but is that love? He wants us to choose to love him. I think of it in terms of my own child. She wants to ride her bike without training wheels. I know she is going to fall. Do I just not let her do it? No, I have to let her try. I have to give her the opportunity to fail so she can learn. Thats what God does for us. He knows what the outcome will be but because he truly loves us he lets us go and make our own decisions. Some will run to him others will not.
The really amazing thing is that he knew before the foundations of time that his beloved would hang on a cross as a sacrifice for us. He himself would have to be tortured and die so that we could be with him if we chose to.
That is love!"
The above should answer your question if there is free will or not from a Christian perspective.
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 17, 2006 14:32:08 GMT -5
God destroying the world is a metaphor. Simply implying without repent and salvation we are all doomed, chain only as strong as weakest link, what is done to one man is done to me etc etc.
I see no contradiction there. The whole purpose is to gain hope as it is necessary for life. Without hope, you die.
Experiments have been done on animals. If they were bad they were beaten, if they were good they were beaten, results? They died, gave up will to live as they could neither predict behavior nor afford to hope.
Why does free will and predetermined be opposites?Can they not coexist like yin and yang, good and evil, wet and dry, sweet and sour? ;D
The possibilities are endless and although one cannot predict the future, one can surely help it along. Go to work everyday you increase likelihood of keeping your job. You may still lose it, but you stand better chance of keeping it. Brush your teeth to keep cavities away.
Over simplifying? No what works on a small scale is the same on larger one, only the links are harder to follow. But there is no doubt in my mind that many events in our live can be traced back with some type of "web of causality". Reap what you sow. Helps those who help themselves. etc etc. Whether it is a meta physical God or simply a concept, fact remains, it is good practice to hope as it leads to human integrity.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 17, 2006 14:33:45 GMT -5
It's an interesting analogy but it does not explain why God gets all bent out of shape about his sons death or why he offers to let mankind live if they follow a better path as in the flood? It seems cruel to dangle a carrot when you know full well mankind has no hope of changing. The Islamic and Jewish philosophers and thinkers had better explanations, and it explains the "limitations" of Gods omniscience much better than I could. It also explains why the Jews and Muslims believe a very different side to free will, fundamentally knowing all the actions of man is against the idea of free will, how do you get out of this problem? Read the link, it's really interesting Still they fail to come up with a full solution. We either are predetermined but think we have free will or God does not know the particulars merely the outcomes, either way it's all fairly unsatisfactory.
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Post by archon on Mar 17, 2006 15:27:35 GMT -5
It's an interesting analogy but it does not explain why God gets all bent out of shape about his sons death or why he offers to let mankind live if they follow a better path as in the flood? Could you elaborate? How did God get 'bent out of shape' after his Son's death? I don't remember reading that. If we are predetermined than life sucks - but hey, how could I know that? God is the big three O's..if either O is suffering than God aint God.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 17, 2006 15:43:03 GMT -5
Well didn't God want to rage against mankind for killing his son and didn't Jesus ask of God that they forgive them for they knew not what they did? Maybe it's just me but sounds like he was a tad irked? Jesus took the sins of mankind onto himself and thus asked God forgive us. You'll have to understand it's been a while since I read the gospels, maybe the other stuff is just artistic license by Hollywood? But that's what I thought happened? Fact is with omniscience as Christians describe it free will is non existent, which is why the Jews and Muslims have been debating the Issue for the last thousand years or so. I'd get over the fact that the way Christians interpret God is necessarily correct, by far the greater numbers of followers of God do not prescribe to it, blindly at least. Now you may be right that I cannot dispute, but if you accept he is omniscient under your terms then you also accept that free will does not exist, this is the conundrum the faithful have been wrestling with, no one seems totally happy with any of the answers though. God destroying the world is a metaphor. Simply implying without repent and salvation we are all doomed, chain only as strong as weakest link, what is done to one man is done to me etc etc. I see no contradiction there. Another convenient metaphor, so the story of the flood is a parable not a fact? Your somewhat alone with that view, theologians can't really come to terms with the big issues thrown up by omniscience. And predeterminism means everything is pre set. Free will means that we have a selection of choices at any given moment, not they are not mutually exclusive as such, but if you accept you may have a series of choices but what choice you make is predetermined and will lead to the same fate, then that is not free will by definition. Free will is essentially the ability by choice to decide your own fate. omniscience destroys that, in that the fate is already known.
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 17, 2006 19:07:57 GMT -5
Of course Noah's ark is a metaphor. You think any theological scholar believes God gave warning to this man, he made a super duper big boat, gathered 2 of every kind and placed them aboard just before the entire middle east was turned into a sea for weeks? Or that Jesus took a few loaves of bread and did a multiplication so that hundred where fed and still had some left over? I do not ascertain to know all the biblical passages and even what they may refer too(too much debate, too many authors involved over nearly 80 years, too much editing to serve those in power etc), but there is little doubt in my mind the importance of the stories lie within the concepts they hold, not in their particular words. As for whether we have the choice to choose or only the appearance of a choice(due to the outcome already being decided). I do not beleive the outcome is already decided. Why? Because in my work the only certitude is death. Those who die with hope, meaning, integrity seem to get thrrough the experience a little better. Nature tends to have laws and most of the time to be logical. I would think that hope serves a purpose. If my fate and those of others is already predetermined then where does hope fit in? No sense in feeling positive or negative for that matter if the outcome is already sealed. As for God knowing everythign thus this limiting our choices..I liek the analogy written here about letting a child fall while riding a bike. If the purpose of our existance is to growth spiritually or other wise then choice is needed. Ever see those kind of scifi shows where man encounters a "superior" alien. The alien coudl crush the planet yet...after seeing man at world becomes amased by our acts of compassion or tenderness and decides to spare us? Mankind as been thinking about the notions of good/evil for thousands of years. We will never knwo the answers I guess, until we die and thus cant come backl top tell anyone This being said from my personal experiences thsoe who are positive, have purpose, acceptance, choice, tend to lead more fullfuling lives.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 18, 2006 7:23:07 GMT -5
Indeed I agree that a lot of things in the Bible are meant to be parables rather than absolute fact. A side point but did you know for example that there is no translation for many directly from Aramaic, thus any texts which were written originally in that language that refer to Many use the number 40 instead, so when Jesus went into the dessert and fasted for 40 days and 40 nights, they really meant many. Fair number of books written in Aramaic in the new testament, in fact most of them are, it does make you wonder about the accuracy of the Greek/Latin English translations somewhat too. Anyway OT. You don't have to have religion in your life to have meaning purpose or to have strong moral values. In fact it could be argued that being able to look into other belief systems without having to follow a prescribed belief leads you to make better more well rounded moral foundations. Which is why it will come as no great surprise that the great philosophical works on ethics and morals were almost entirely written by atheists and agnostics The point is if god is omniscient then free will does not exist. However if we remove God from the equation or allow that his omniscience is conditional then you can continue to say that Free will may exist. Otherwise it's end of discussion pretty much. Which is why I hate bringing God into the discussion in the first place a) being unable to disprove or proove is no basis for a logical argument b) it destroys the argument itself, because of the limited understanding of what omniscience means. I think there is free will and that if we take the whole of human experience and history into account it's fairly self evident. If free will didn't exist then I'm at a loss to explain philosophy,science,psychology,art, poetry, literature, music and all the other creative pursuits, after all where did they come from? Inspiration is not predetermined surely, since it has seemingly no rhyme or reason or even a source? How about behaviour itself, why do people seem to act so irrationally and why is it so hard to judge what someone will do or say in any given situation. Try it next time your going to meet someone try and rig a situation where there are limited scopes for a response. such as a hi there and shaking someones hand? Try and predict what those you know very well will say, how often do you get it right, try and predict what someones reply will be when you ask a question. Now you might say that this is still predetermined by that persons make up or that the words can be different but the actions that lead to fate are the same? Free will is an illusion that is so complete that it may as well be real is something I've heard, but there's is an infinity of complexity of action both in action and reaction, if all of these infinite possibilities are preset, then that's some mighty complicated programming(what all factors down to the last quanta of matter)? If we accept that the brain is affected by chaotic perturbations as well this also leads to free will, we have choice a that leads us to fate A, but chaotic quantum electron tunneling between a synapse of a neuron suddenly causes us to consider b(an intuitive or inspirational thought) How is this predetermined? so choices x/y that leads in an unbroken procession to A is now on choice y instead of x which was the predetermined path. Now every choice in the future is completely unforeseen and completely random. Does free will exist? Maybe?
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 18, 2006 9:01:26 GMT -5
Sidhe wrote
I agree. God is not necessary to finding hope and meaning. But hope and meaning are themes which some up while studying any religion, why is this so? Because without free will there can be no hope as all is already decided for you.
This being said I still fail to see how free will and predetermined outcomes can't coexist. Especially if the world is defined though the eyes of the person itself. Two persons looking at the same scenario will see two different things. The result may be the same(predetermined) but the way the experience is viewed can differ (free will). So in my mind one does not exclude the other. "life is what you make of it" and other saying reflect this.
::modified can coexist to can't coexist:: oops
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 18, 2006 10:25:20 GMT -5
There can be no hope if you know that life is predetermined and that you don't have free will but since it's pretty difficult to know that if not impossible, then most people can accept that even if fate exists they at least can live with the illusion of free will.
I think they can't both live simultaneously because of the absolute definitions:
Free will
Ability to chose several possibilities without being confined to one choice(if you have 5 choices and those choices lead to five other choices etc etc etc, then you can't possibly have fate, their are incredibly large number of possible outcomes)
Fate or predeterminism
Your path is decided by a God or Gods, or there is nothing you can do that which will not lead to this preordained fate.
You cannot have both free will and be subject to fate at the same time essentialy.
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Post by Avogadro on Mar 18, 2006 10:34:56 GMT -5
on this premise even if free will is an illusion, the option of believing in free will shows a choice exists.
Kinda like I think therefore I am, even if I'm not the fact that I think I am proves I exist.
To choice in having choices is in itself a demonstration of hope. even is the outcome is decided, choosing in options is beneficial as it is not always the end result which matters but often the journey taken to get there.
If I go to work everyday wishing to become a millionaire...I may succeed or I may not, but I will have learned the lessons of hard work, backbone, determination etc. So whether it is predetermined that I become rich or not may not matter that much as living in the way I choose still has an impact if not on the outside world then on myself internally.
A person diagnosed with terminal illness may decide to lay down and count the days till the end or experience all they can before its time to go. The outcome is the same, they will die. The way they live in the meantime is quite different however.
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Post by archon on Mar 18, 2006 10:36:06 GMT -5
You think any theological scholar believes God gave warning to this man, he made a super duper big boat, gathered 2 of every kind and placed them aboard just before the entire middle east was turned into a sea for weeks? I'm one of those people Avo. And there are many others - both scientific, layman, etc -that think that. And there are many other - both scientific, layman, etc - that don't think that. Let's stick to the topic at hand, since the above has been already discussed. Sidhe and Avo, have you ever read "Siddhartha" by Hermann Hesse? It's a brillaint work of art about Buddhism which subtley talks about free will and predeterminism. What it discusses in the book is what Avo is proposing, that free will and fate can co-exist. I can see exactly what you are arguing Sidhe - and agree that on a first glance look at God and that the three Big O's, rule out free will. However, this book finds a unity between the two. Please tell me if you have read the book so I can continue.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 18, 2006 10:37:39 GMT -5
Unfortunately no , but I'd like to sounds interesting.
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Post by Sidhe on Mar 18, 2006 10:47:54 GMT -5
on this premise even if free will is an illusion, the option of believing in free will shows a choice exists. Kinda like I think therefore I am, even if I'm not the fact that I think I am proves I exist. To choice in having choices is in itself a demonstration of hope. even is the outcome is decided, choosing in options is beneficial as it is not always the end result which matters but often the journey taken to get there. If I go to work everyday wishing to become a millionaire...I may succeed or I may not, but I will have learned the lessons of hard work, backbone, determination etc. So whether it is predetermined that I become rich or not may not matter that much as living in the way I choose still has an impact if not on the outside world then on myself internally. A person diagnosed with terminal illness may decide to lay down and count the days till the end or experience all they can before its time to go. The outcome is the same, they will die. The way they live in the meantime is quite different however. Of course that's the sort of ideas that enable religion to come to conclusions that free will is an illusion and life is predetermined. The things like God can see the end but not the particulars that lead to that end. Or that the path is predetermined it just seems that it isn't. Only if you take the definition from the persepective of a moment of time can you say that one cannot exist without the other. However That's kind of what philsophers want to know if you say you are free to make choices but will always end up at the same point then do you have free will? Or is free will conditional on never having a preoradained fate, let's face it if you live to 110 it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they could halt the effects of again or reverse it in the next 70 years, even death could be nothing absolute. Another point is since the future doesn't exist how can you know that will happen without having some predeterminism, or you can say if the future exists then fate rules. Free will means the future doesn't exist in which case how can God see what you are going to turn out like without determining your course? Unless he can see the future which of course means free will can't exist. Only way he could see the future is if he can see every possible future and in that case you have free will, but even placing a value on what free will god can see for you, destroys free will. It's all very difficult to have Free will and omniscience, good luck in trying to find an answer
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