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Post by claudelu on Dec 22, 2005 16:43:46 GMT -5
I seriously believe letting anyone join at any time has been towards the ladder detriment. More and more I see players (either very good or very bad at the game, that's not the issue here) quitting games, not reporting, scrapping at will, not rejoining (and then not reporting), being arrogant and impatient (i.e. "let's continue" when someone drops, not wanting to wait 10 minutes). Games are almost like non-ladder at the moment, and really, it sucks. I understood why the ladder was made free for everyone, but I think it is time to make it invite only and check for real e-mail addresses and purge repeated non-reporters. These issues, corroborated with the lack of stability of the game at connection point, makes it less and less enjoyable for everyone.
I miss the games with people with dignity and sportsmanship and most of all, discipline to actually finish a game. Or, ok, if you think you don't stand a chance and better quit, report right away!
Don't get me wrong, I like playing with new people, but at least half of them are impatient adolescent twits who think they can do whatever they want on this ladder.
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Post by Sidhe on Dec 22, 2005 17:14:24 GMT -5
Got to say he has a point, it is kind of annoying a the moment the amount of non reports. Perhaps 50% are ignorant of the rules, the rest are just trying to get away with not reporting. I often find I contact someone and no reply, as if it's not worth the effort to even refute your claim. They just decide they'll only report to the guy that kills them and ignore the rules, or hope you won't report them. The rules are there for a reason, to stop quitters; every time someone ignores the rules and spreads this kind of behaviour to others, we get more quitters. Therefore the glove is of for me, if I get a non reporter I'm gonna start sending names, you guys all do the same. This ladder is about integrity, we've probably left enough breathing space now: it's time to take out the trash. You can tell who the noobs are and who are the abusers, time to make them pay. I'm easy going I'll spend a long time bugging people for reports, but I think it's time to take issue. I told one guy why these rules exist, to stop quitters etc etc. And he said yeah good explanation thankyou, did he report, no? I'm with claudelu, this is annoying.
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Post by donaldkipper on Dec 22, 2005 18:06:40 GMT -5
if i had all the reports i should have i would have had a win percentage about 90 instead 66
i grew tired of filing non-reports when nothing ever happened from them in c3c
now i need a screenshot, it just isnt worth my time
i know the ladder needs people to file non-reports but i play the game for fun and filing the number of non-reports i would need to isnt fun
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Post by tommynt on Dec 22, 2005 19:00:56 GMT -5
best solution .. dont play unranked also no1 with something like 5-1 next best .. dont play cton
too easy to join ladder for sure - i dont even check my reports - ok just did it to check for posting in this thread - i got quite some reports .. proly people remember to report to n1 better as to some1 else - also 1-1s are more reported i guess
a joke is this screenshot thing - there are just enough players out there who should be reliable enough to get their report from a un(low)ranked without screenshot
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Post by SirPartyMan on Dec 22, 2005 19:31:35 GMT -5
I recognize we have a problem. But I don't see a connection with the ladder being "public" making it much easier and faster to join.
Let me assure you we have an enlargened admin staff which is checking for multiple accounts, which is handling non-reports. If you don't like the situation, do something about it.
The problem is twofold:
a) We have a lot of new players. We need to educate them. Hosts should welcome new players but make sure they know the rules about reporting.
b) You have to file a non-report or you send people the message that it's ok not to report. The penalty for non-reporting should be unavoidable - that's the best cure. It takes no more than 30 seconds to file a non-report. If you have several to file, even less.
Please all players should keep records. I just have a pad on which I write down the players names - one page one game. Indicate who won and who owes you reports. You are doing not just yourself but the entire ladder a favor when you file the non-report. That's the only way to track down and penalize the small percentage who don't follow the rules.
A screen shot is not required to file a non-report. It is excellent incontrovertible evidence. But there are other ways - like a 3rd party's word - to prove your case. Plus most non-reporters don't even file an objection -- they usually report when they receive the email reminder.
Think about it. The best way to fix the problem is to file non-report complaints whenever it occurs. And peer pressure - education - let the new people know about concepts like honor, and respect.
Best, SPM
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Post by sparta on Dec 22, 2005 19:32:46 GMT -5
It's happening with both ladders, the non reporting. In C3P I have 5 non reports from the past 2 days. And it's getting worse...
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Post by Tony on Dec 22, 2005 20:01:21 GMT -5
I gotta say i understand what claud is saying, but i too fail to the connection between making the ladder invite only and "quick-sign-up". There is nothing to vouch for new players, so all invites are accepted, so it pretty much the same thing.
Its a new game you will get new people, if you guys go into any game lobby, its the same thing, some people will swear and just generally be petty. How can you establish if somsone is an idiot or not from an Email address? The hope is after a while people not into high competitiveness will not play ladder games, and new people signing up will reduce in numbers, so you left with the people who are not likely to leave.
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Post by claudelu on Dec 22, 2005 20:48:48 GMT -5
Here are the facts: in c3c ladder the number of non-reports was 2-5%, instead of 30-40% as it is now, for me. And no, Fried, this statistic is NOT made up.
Here's the connection: if you do it invite only, you can weed out addresses like 2l33t4j00@hotmail.com and ibeatuall@yahoo.com; everyone has a "normal" e-mail account, or they will get one if they want to play on the ladder. Also making it invite only MIGHT help admins to see whether one player is registering for 2 accounts easier. Moreover, and most importantly, it weeds out people who just want to try it, but they aren't really that interested in playing on the civ4 ladder anyway. If it's inconvenient a bit, only the players patient enough to wait (because they actually love the game) will get in. It was the very purpose c3c ladder was invite only, and to be honest, it worked... Right now it's 50 percent kids who found a new toy to play with and will leave it after a week, not reporting, quitting games and inconveniencing everyone.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Dec 22, 2005 21:45:20 GMT -5
Invite only and forcing ISP provided emails are two different polices. We actually had that policy for awhile on C3P but it became a real issue as some national ISP's don't provide there only email service and use gmail or yahoo mail as standard. The only real thing that becoming invite only would do is fillter out the odd double account, but WarningU2 is already doing a good job at that, most of which are just families or misguided noobs.
The real problem here can't be solved by going to invite only and that is really a/ noobs that haven't read or been imformed of the rules, or b/ pathetically lazy vets that are taking advantage of the noob situation to not report either.
The real solution is to file all your non-reports and the bombs are there bad reps will do wonders, either that or they will just either quit or get banned. Real simple.
So I'm afraid that the solution to getting back to the 5% non-reports that we are used to, is not a invite only ladder but some short term pain for both the Admin staff and every honest ladder player. Make the system work and the ladder will get back to were it was.
CS
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Post by Srayman on Dec 23, 2005 0:25:08 GMT -5
I agree totally with both SPM's and Canucks responses. It's mostly the fact that this is a new game and lots of new people. Yes there might be some people that are just trying to get away with the situation and not report. But filing a non-report is easy and doesn't take long at all. I've filed a few and they've been handled. Getting on top of the people that aren't reporting and file non reports on them and then when they see the consequences they'll have a choice to make. Either report or get penalized. I always check the players in a game and when someone has a bomb next to their name, then I warn all the other players in the game about it and immediately that person is shunned and no one wants to play them. So they are forced to go find another game. Yet another reason why people will soon realize that facing non reports is a bad thing for them to do. If we just step up and do a bit of work, we can get most of the people in line and have them working properly. Also this will take some work from the admin team and hopefully they'll not get worn down by all the non reports because I know if the number of people we have on the ladder are filing non reports like I am, then they'll have their work cut out. But in the end I think it'll make the ladder a bigger, stronger ladder. Although limiting people by making it invite only could reduce some of the problems it also makes the ladder look stingy and elitist which is not what we want in my view. Eventually things will get worked out and down to a minimum hassle, and hopefully it won't be too long.
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Post by revivalist on Dec 23, 2005 10:22:05 GMT -5
this is an extremely complex problem
i dont wanna discriminate against all the new ladder members as there are some good solid people joining the ranks. We have some of them ocntributing to the forum and displaying the sportsmanship that made the civ3 ladder such a wonder.
Having said that, the ladder now feels too impersonal, without getting all nostalgic, the civ3 ladder is wot prolonged the life of civ3. The people you played with determined how much fun u got outta the game. I dont see these guys diving into civ4 which imo, it detracts hugely from the overall enjoyment of the game. The current lobby setup is a major factor in this. And there have been numerous attempts to combat this. The c4f chat program, the MIRC chat thing and now even a yim conference room.
What you now have instead are people who r fairly new to mp and ladder play and they dont display the same characteristics that civ3 ladder showed. This impersonal nature we now have has hugely dented the feeling of community the civ3 ladder possessed. People are impatient, impolite, rude, arrogant (including myself at times), all of which were there in small elements in civ3, but its now the norm. People barge into a room setup and DEMAND the settings from the host.
After having said all that, i cant offer a solution to this..... this movement i think is inevitable for a growing community. What will end up happening, is that clans will become much stronger as a result, people playing with familiars. And the old ladder vets will tend to stick together using alternative communication programs like is already happening with YIM. I just dont have the patience to 'teach' the ladder noobs about etiquette and sportsmanship etc etc.
But a small step in the right direction is to do something about the chat and lobby interface. IMO this was GS or firaxis or whoevers, biggest thingyup.
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Post by SirPartyMan on Dec 23, 2005 11:12:57 GMT -5
The "lobby" problem is now fixed with the 1.52 patch. You can be in Game Setup and ...
1) participate in Lobby chat 2) privately IM any player
By the way, this change is a direct result of the efforts of the CIV4Players Admin Board lobbying Firaxis to make this change. Fried and Canuck were especially helpful in getting this made into a top priority.
Best, SPM
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Dec 23, 2005 11:52:22 GMT -5
If I may make a reccomendation to those players who are filing non-reports but finding it too time consuming, use this format... just cutting and pasting this would do. Name: Friedrich Psitalon Game Played on: December 25, 2005 (Evening) Players in Game: Joe, Steve, Bob, Sarah Player who did not report: Steve That's really all we need in the first email. Just change the names. 7 times out of 10, (yes Claude, that's made up ;D) Steve won't argue the case, and getting that email will be enough to make him report. If for some reason he won't, we can immediately go to the other players and say "Did this game take place, and did Steve place in X position?" Done and done. A lot of players add all kinds of additional information we don't need on a "first pass." If we don't ask for it, save yourself the trouble. Hope that helps.
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Post by cmdishr on Dec 23, 2005 11:59:15 GMT -5
this is an extremely complex problem Having said that, the ladder now feels too impersonal, without getting all nostalgic, the civ3 ladder is wot prolonged the life of civ3. The people you played with determined how much fun u got outta the game. I dont see these guys diving into civ4 which imo, it detracts hugely from the overall enjoyment of the game. The current lobby setup is a major factor in this. And there have been numerous attempts to combat this. The c4f chat program, the MIRC chat thing and now even a yim conference room. In revi speak that means there arent enough women playing this game...but seriously rev you are right. I think the difference is that this is an all new game and the carry over respect the old vets got is gone. In a game last night and after the patch I forgot to change my options back to what they were...so the stack attack option wasnt selected...I get " What a noob didnt even select stack attack option"....different game different breed!
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Post by Lestat on Dec 23, 2005 12:56:20 GMT -5
Hmmm dnt push me for tongue. Civ4 ladder is great. Less time to find game. Less non reports. Less abusing...Les elitzm. Most of new members are honest and funy. Dnt forget that maybe kids join ladder. They spaming, having double account,non-reporting etc... And of course old baned vets can rude ladder to.
Now go and play and stop crying.
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Post by DrShot on Dec 23, 2005 13:01:27 GMT -5
Cut and paste, great Idea... I will try it .
"That's really all we need in the first email. Just change the names. 7 times out of 10, (yes Claude, that's made up ) Steve won't argue the case, and getting that email will be enough to make him report."
Wow, that works great, thx ;D
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Dec 23, 2005 14:25:02 GMT -5
Funny guy, Shot. To add to what I wanted to say earlier (squeezing in time on a dial-up in the mountains) I think CMD is right. I'm not convinced a new community won't bloom here, but there are a LOT of new faces - a majority in fact. We also aren't doing a lot to encourage them to come here, and that's a big part of what makes a community. The old veterans have to earn respect in the new community, and that takes time. Very few of you (not trying to be insulting, really) were here in the earliest days of PTW; it took time to build that community of respect there, too. Honestly, we're ahead of the PTW experience in community-building by several leaps, but it doesn't happen overnight. We need patient, calm voices of veterans, pointing out the forums, showing people "our ways" and generally being positive and upbeat. Presenting a good public face is a big part of being a community. That's the part I think we're failing at now.
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Post by Random on Dec 23, 2005 15:49:04 GMT -5
I have over 70 non reports but like many others I have not spent time reporting them. They are not just ladder noobs, but as I am a member of the resetters club maybe people think they do not need to report to me as it will not matter. I started resetting because no one was reporting, not because I was losing... But alas still a problem and I am still resetting... Maybe a happy medium will come soon.
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Post by WarningU2 on Dec 23, 2005 16:35:09 GMT -5
Hmmm ...
I seldom come in here now as I spend an hour or every night and morning tracking down multiple accounts on CIV4Players. I'll reserve my comments on the invite only or open league.
Here's the deal regarding non reports. The only way the ladder works is if YOU file non reports. It disturbs me that you say that you have 70 non reports but you reset constantly. You are your own worst enemy. Don't complain about it if you can't be bothered to file non reports.
Non reports are easy to handle. It requires regimented discipline on both the filers and admins end. You log each game - take a screen shot. Players don't report if you win you send them a POLITE request. If they ignore you 24 hrs later you file a non report. The admin receives it and waits 72 hrs. If its not contested they are are forced. Repeat offendors are penalized and eventually barred if they don't shape up.
My point is ... that it takes all ladder members to make the ladder work. Don't be playing the violin crying the blues when you are sitting back watching the non reports mount up.
The whole point of the ladder was not to climb the ladder to be number one but to find players you know that will play a game to conclusion.
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Post by yyrkroon on Dec 24, 2005 2:05:05 GMT -5
Well, I am one of those new guys to the ladder (loved Civ I & II, absolutely hated Civ 3), and while the CIV ladder might not be everything you desire, ladder players are still on average leaps and bounds beyond non ladder players in terms of skill and sportsmanship.
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