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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 8:32:56 GMT -5
What should be done with "people" like this? This is from my hometown newspaper. My answer to the question is that we should not tolerate our citizens being exposed to this kind of beast. I also don't think the taxpayers should be forced to provide his room and board for the next 50 years. www.jsonline.com/news/metro/nov05/369718.asp
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Cruise
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Post by Cruise on Nov 11, 2005 8:39:40 GMT -5
In my country the guy would have been treated as someone with a psychological defect and regarded as a patient to be treated. Putting him away for life only if there is no sign of improvement. We don't have the death penalty.
What i find disturbingly hypocritical a strong christian country like the U.S.A. supporting capital punishment while it is clearly forbidden by its religion.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 11, 2005 9:02:18 GMT -5
It's surprising the ways in which you can pervert the bibles message. Though shalt not kill unless he deserves it then it's fine. Oddly enough killing in the name of God is ok too. War is fine it's civilised murder surely? I wouldn't even bother with the lengths so called christians will go to to justify some pretty horrendous crimes, suffice to say that there not really christians and should not pretend they are. Perverting religion to political ends unfortunately is not the preserve of the muslim fundementalists. Though shalt not kill, means not ever for any reason ever, ever! Does it say though shalt not steal except if the guys rich or an arsehole? No, so why is that commandment not explicit too? is there a subscript I'm missing? Americas death penalty is a throwback to an earlier age that should of died out long ago, but somehow has clung on. Does anyone realy believe the death penalty is a deterent to commit muder any more? He He, the first contentious off topic issue of the board, well done cruise/whiplash
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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 9:06:15 GMT -5
There are countless examples of the failure of "psychological treatment" in cases like this where the subject is so badly wharped. This guy takes delight in the suffering of others.
The death penalty is not universally applied in the US. Each state can choose, through legislation, to adopt the death penalty. Presently, 12 of the 50 states do not have the death penalty, including Wisconsin where this crime was commited.
We are constantly struggling with issues involving the public good vs the rights of indivduals. I believe the responsibility of the government to protect it's law-abiding citizens is uppermost.
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Post by Cruise on Nov 11, 2005 9:18:15 GMT -5
There are countless examples of the failure of "psychological treatment" in cases like this where the subject is so badly wharped. This guy takes delight in the suffering of others. Then you also imply there are a good number of examples of succesful treatment in which the patient was able to serve society again, which is the initial aim of the treatment. Actually today a guy in my country was sentenced for life for killing a homeless guy and inflicting injury on animals which had to be put away after the injury. The guy was treated in the past but the judges ruled he is incurable. I agree that letting someone back into society can be risky. But on the other hand taking someone's life either by killing or imprisoning for life might be worse if a cure is possible. It is a tough call to make, but with the way my country handles it there is always room for improvement and better guidance can eventually reduce and take away the risks. Going for the easy way out won't be an improvement over time. We aim to cure every sick person that can be cured.
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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 9:31:16 GMT -5
It's surprising the ways in which you can pervert the bibles message. Though shalt not kill unless he deserves it then it's fine. The Commandment actually is: Though shall not murder. While the Catholic Church is fundamentally opposed to capital punishment, many Catholics and other Christians are not. The issue really is rooted in Judaism which is the forerunner to Christianity. The preservation of human dignity requires capital punishment of convicted murderers. The position of Judaism is the opposite of the position espoused by liberals. It is precisely because of man`s creation in God`s image that capital punishment is declared justified and necessary. Human dignity requires execution of murderers, not compassion for their souls The Bible makes it crystal clear that the way one acknowledges that human souls are created in God`s image and deserving of respect and dignity is through capital punishment. Just read Genesis 9:6: "A man who spills human blood, his own blood shall be spilled by man because God made man in His own Image." Not just among Jews, by the way, but among all sons of Noah. It's impossible to answer this question in a manner of absolute "proof". Logically, I would conclude in some situations murders have been prevented because of the fear of the punishment. While this is not true in most cases because "logic" goes out the window with passion. But some murders are dispassionate; they are committed for gain. I believe in these situations the death penalty does serve as a deterrent. The question of deterrence is only one part of the equation. What about Punishment? Back to the Bible again; what about an eye for an eye?
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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 9:45:07 GMT -5
There are countless examples of the failure of "psychological treatment" in cases like this where the subject is so badly wharped. This guy takes delight in the suffering of others. You are framing the debate in exactly the way I characterized it. It's the common good vs the rights of the individual. What is the success rate of the psychological treatment? I think in situations involving personality defects it is very low. Pragmatically, this approach is putting many innocent people at risk in the hopes of rehabilitating a few criminals. To me thats a bad value equation. Getting back to religion, we need to acknowledge that Evil exists.
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Post by Cruise on Nov 11, 2005 9:56:59 GMT -5
That's why it is so important to find out if a person can be cured. Unfortunately mistakes are made from time to time. But killing people when a cure was possible is a big mistake too. The perfect situation would be to put away (imprison) those who can't be cured and treat those who can. You won't ever reach that situation if you don't try to improve treatment and characterization. Even though some people do horrible things, most of the time it's because of a combination of circumstances they can't help and can be resolved. I agree some people simply are totally messed up, but you won't be able to tell the difference and learn how it possibly can be cured or prevented if don't do any research and instead give them the chair.
About religion: It's the seed of evil itself. Religion worked 1000 years ago in small communities to control the populous, but with the introduction of intermixing religions you will eventually get intercultural tensions leading to hate, wars and death.
Think of this: all religions claim they're right and the followers will go to heaven and those who don't to hell. Religions are geographically dependent. Since there's only 1 god and 1 religion that's right you have no chance to go to heaven if you happen to be born in the wrong place in the wrong environment.
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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 10:05:42 GMT -5
In the US we don't use "the chair" anymore. Old Smokey was retired long ago. "The condemned prisoner was typically strapped into the chair, with one electrode attached to the head and a second attached to the leg. At least two jolts of an electrical current would be applied for several minutes, depending on the person. An initial voltage of around 2,000 volts is used to break the initial resistance of the skin and cause unconsciousness (in theory—people surviving to tell the tale are rare). The voltage is then lowered to reduce current flow so as to prevent burning. A current flow of around 8 amps is usual. The body of the condemned would heat up to 138°F (59°C), and the electric current would cause severe damage to internal organs. In theory, unconsciousness occurs in a fraction of a second. There have been reports of victims' heads on fire, of burning transformers, and of letting the crying victim wait in pain on the floor of the execution room while the chair was fixed. In 1946, the electric chair failed to kill Willie Francis, who reportedly shrieked "Stop it! Let me breathe!" as he was being executed. It turned out that the portable electric chair had been improperly set up by an intoxicated trustee. A case was brought before the U.S. Supreme Court (Francis v. Resweber), 329 U.S. 459 (1947), with lawyers for the murderer arguing that although Francis did not die, he had, in fact, been executed. The argument was rejected, and Francis was returned to the electric chair and killed the following year." For a complete history of "the chair" go here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_chairThe US presently uses Lethal Injection. Although in some states the condemned may choose the method. Options include lethal injection, hanging, firing squad, electrocution, and lethal gas. Nebraska is the sole state to only have electrocution as the method of execution. The following graphic illustrates an interesting cultural trend in the US. www.newsbatch.com/dp-pubopdp.html
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Post by Cruise on Nov 11, 2005 10:09:47 GMT -5
I used the chair as a figure of speech.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 11, 2005 10:10:17 GMT -5
The problem is how do you define murder? If I take a gun and kill a man with aforethought it is murder yes. Isn't that precisely what capital punishment is then sanctioned murder, how is it different from an ethical point of view?War is the same surely? Anyway I deliberately used the word Christian because it avoids the need to refer to the old testament as such. The new testatament has a very different outlook on what it is justified for a man to do to another, and it's message is certainly the Christian one.
Cruise is absolutley right, what gives us the right to judge someone as beyond hope before we've even given them a chance?
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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 10:14:26 GMT -5
Pretty simple really. Murder is the UNJUSTIFIED taking of human life.
From Dictionary.com:
"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice. "
And we do have the right, if not the responsibility, to make judgments. Judgments are necessary for an orderly society.
Sidhe, what does the New Testament say about capital punishment?
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Post by jumanji on Nov 11, 2005 11:31:26 GMT -5
When are you people going to realize that there are some human beings that are born evil and have no redeeming qualities whatsoever. For them and societies benefit there is only one solution.......... EXECUTION
And religious beliefs have nothing to do with it. It is another back door slight at America when you use that in your responses.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 11, 2005 12:58:01 GMT -5
And that's the whole problem isn't it what is justified? How can we judge, with a clear conscience?
There are some people without redeeming qualities, which, had they not been born the word would be a better place. The trouble is of course without them living a full life how can we know what they may have done? I don't want to come across as sounding like a huge liberal, because there should be punishment for any crime, I just feel that the death penalty is no solution, and so does the vast majority of the western world.
And of course we all know the argument that innocent people are given the death sentence, so well played I wont even go there.
The reason religion is used because it's defined our legal system for thousands of years and by extension yours, it forms the basis of many laws that still exist to this day. The only slight to America is not it's religious beliefs, but how it choses to interpret it's religion.
BTW even the Israeli government does not have the death penalty. Maybe you should stop talking about laws from a book that dealt with a totally different society and age, they have.
Interesting links Whiplash.
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Post by whiplash on Nov 11, 2005 13:14:56 GMT -5
The Israeli government tried and executed Adolf Eichmann. It's true that Israel does not have the death penalty now; but creeping liberalism seems to have infected every society. As to the links, I find this one intriguing: www.newsbatch.com/dp-pubopdp.htmlSomething must have happened following 1970, not sure what.
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Post by skidbladnir on Nov 11, 2005 16:29:57 GMT -5
must have followed 1st reports on the 70 virgins waiting for you in heaven
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Post by Magzi on Nov 11, 2005 16:41:19 GMT -5
What good are virgins?...
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 11, 2005 17:55:27 GMT -5
yes I saw that, but let's find a graph that recognises the western worlds idea about the death penalty? in the past, always looking to the past? now it's ethically wrong, now. I think you'll find that your country is in a minority and I'll think You'll find you know it.
There are lies damn lies and then there are statistics.
You don't have to be liberal to understand the crap that's passed off as righteousness.
Your country is a great country, we all know this we admire your freedom and liberalism, but unfortunately on this issue you are lagging behind the rest of the western world, and are constantly trying to justify a position that is untenable, gl, it's not conservative any more it's it's losing the battle against consensus, enjoy you're habit, it's not something that is morally justified anymore. but of course you'll tell yourselves it is, np, your delusion is looked upon badly. But then when has the country with the most power ever listened to the majority view?
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Post by whiplash on Nov 12, 2005 1:44:44 GMT -5
It bothers me not in the least if we (USA) are in the minority on this, or any issue. What people in other countries think about any issue is of little concern to Americans. I suppose you will call us arrogant for that; but really, the popular opinion is not necessarily the right one.
And besides, Sidhe, your country still has the death penalty for treason.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 13, 2005 6:15:46 GMT -5
Actually we have the death penalty for Piracy, arson on her majesties dockyard as well as high treason. Although in name only, the last execution was nearly 40 years ago.
And the fact that Americans care little about other people's attitudes is precisely why much of it's tampering in world affairs has caused so much damage and no doubt will continue to. Storm was underplaying the ignorance of your government and political ineptitude, if anything. I hope your attitude is not a prevalent one. It seems to me though that it is very much a case of the blind leading the blind.
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