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Post by oculus on Sept 26, 2006 14:23:53 GMT -5
I was recently impressed at how quickly one can develop a city if you start coastal with a fish and/or multiple crabs.
Non coastal civs only get maybe 3 food at size 1, 4 at size 2, and 5 at size 3 - assuming good bonuses or floodplains. Then they have to stop growth for several turns to build that worker.
Fishing boats are the only food producing option I know of that you can actually get before a worker can improve food tiles. And that then even helps to get the worker faster so you can improve the food tiles.
A fisher can ignore the fish at first and focus on resource to build that fishing boat. A fishing boat can then give a 4 or even 5 food tile before you issue a worker. As soon as the boat is working, start using that fish/crab and you are not only growing like mad, but teching well too, which can quickly net you Bronze. You start building that worker too, at double the normal speed.
Now the worker can chop for another quick fishing boat. And very quickly are growing like crazy.
With quick bronze, you can poprush for defense if needed, or use the chop from that worker you got quicker than anyone else to get a unit. Or you are just growing like mad. I always get excited by a nice coastal start.
Downside? Early defense. But as coastal odds are reasonable that fewer people have a route to find you. Only other downside I can think of is not as many directions to put cities in. Since you cant branch out in as much of a ring (the coast is where those other land cities would go). But this can also be good as it may give you less to have to defend and let you expand right at an enemy.
Perhaps there are more considerations to this, and I hope others will comment. But I find that as far as starting positions go and getting the growth engine to go crazy, fishing is devastatingly powerful. I always seem to find myself hope for at least 1 fish.
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Post by Tony on Sept 26, 2006 14:49:49 GMT -5
hmmm
It is true that fishes on the coast are very nice indeed 5 food(6 with lighthouse) is not shabby at all.
But IMO you have over rated its power, give me inland city with river corn anyday.
If you are playing a slightly longer game you will suffer without a massive cottage captial. Water tiles are very unflexable, while land tiles can be worked in a many ways! And in civil service inland citys are a million times better.
Fish start gives you a "smallish" boost very early on IMO thats about it but you pay for it in the long run. Although i must confess i love fishes in ancient teamers, in ctons they are marely average and in long games they are not even that IMO anyway!
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Post by notagoodname on Sept 26, 2006 18:57:08 GMT -5
I agree with Tony completely.
I hate having my capital on coast, the inland food resources are much better. The best starting spots are the inland ones on river with 1 or 2 food resources and a bunch of floodplains+hilly plains and a heap of forest.
Boats are 20 hammers that get used once. Workers are 40 hammers but they can be reused. Workers can chop forests for as many hammers as slavery gives (assuming you have maths, a bit less otherwise) so forests are more important. Coastals typically don't get as many forests or hilly plains for obvious reasons.
Growth isn't all it's cracked up to be, you end up with large unhappy cities if you grow or small unhappy cities if you slave constantly (until you get monarchy that is).
For cities that arn't your capital the food bonuses on coasts are good though. You don't have to care so much about the lack of gold and production in non-capital cities (the +50% gold&prod civil service gives is only for the capital).
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Post by Atomation on Sept 27, 2006 16:36:54 GMT -5
Fishing boats are better the slower the gamespeed....because it's an instant build food source. Workers have to spend 8 turns improving irrigation on epic. Since we only play on quick, boats don't have as much of a point, but they are still handy. I think the best use of boats is building one to grow to size 2, then switching to a worker and slaving it, then continue on the workboat again.
The major drawback of a workboat over a worker is that the worker can improve many tiles and chop trees, whereas a workboat just plops itself on the food and its gone forever.
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Post by oculus on Sept 27, 2006 19:15:43 GMT -5
Yes, I find them useful for helping the very 1st city to get the very 1st worker out sooner, since you can build them without stopping growth at all (whereas if you just built straight at worker, you stop growth completely).
Then when the boat is built not only didnt you have to stop growth, but you now also have about doubled your speed for building the 1st worker. This again means less time stopped growing. And it means the worker gets to start work earlier because it is finished earlier (without having to sacrifice growth).
I do not claim it to be the end all of existence. But I find that by building a boat first in my very first city, I can issue my 1st worker faster than I otherwise would, and without sacrificing growth. This is because instead of just relying on food to grow my excess food/shield, I can use food and shields to grow my excess food/shields.
The only other technique I know for getting a 1st worker out so quick is poprushing it. And that certainly sacrifices growth and happiness. The boat only sacrifices shields. It is a difference alternative.
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Post by mrsaturn on Sept 27, 2006 21:06:17 GMT -5
Good points about ocean res cities- Fast growth Good early trade, especially with financial Slave like mad to make your workers and settlers in that city, and even military units Great for GP cities because of too much food
Bad points- Few hammers Larger chance you'll lack metal, or will have to travel farther to get it
Basically it's not so great for capital or early on if you don't get strategic res, but definitely take advantage of it for an expansion city.
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Post by MMV on Oct 10, 2006 10:34:25 GMT -5
without fishing boats - you get the food benefit if/as your population grows (those boats you see out there that you didn't build).
building a fishing boat gets you the defined +health of the water resource (varies depending on clam/fish, etc) and I think a little +food
harbors and lighthouses are actually what gives you more food from your coastal cities (both increase food)
the fishing tech when you are inland on a river or lake? some say it doesn't do anything, personally, I think it does - even though you don't need/can't build a fishing boat on an inland river/small lake.
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Post by Tony on Oct 12, 2006 16:27:55 GMT -5
Please explain this post MMV i dont understand it, from what i can make out its pretty much all wrong, but maybe im misreading it!
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Post by MMV on Oct 12, 2006 17:31:43 GMT -5
of course I'm wrong, you said so, lol.
Look it up in the civlopedia - units, buildings, improvements, etc.
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Post by Tony on Oct 12, 2006 18:44:54 GMT -5
Ok ill fish through your post and give my understanding and then why its not right. I think your implying working fish with out a workboat gives food bonus, this is wrong (unless you call 2-food, 2gold a bonus, this is even worst then regualr forest). Clams and fish and crabs ALL only give plus 1 health, but the main reason they are good is the plus 4/5 food they give. ("...and I think a little +food" the food bonus is pretty much the only reason to build a workboat) Some maybe have to correct me here but habour does not give NO food bonus, it only gives plus 1 health per sea-food connected! Plus 50% trade route yield normally about 1-3 gold! Kinda agree with you here, but this is only an issue if you have sucky ass cites they need to use water tiles, which is rare on the ladder. (or ofcrouse if you fin or planning colusus). Practice what you preach? Im not tearing your thread down, but oct has posted asking for help, wrong information (well so much wrong information more accurately) is counter productive IMO. If you unsure about something post it here and im sure somsone will be willing to help!
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Post by MMV on Oct 12, 2006 22:35:42 GMT -5
I don't have a thread (Oculus does) - so no, you're not tearing down my thread
you are tearing down my post.
but that's what you do - to everybody.
big whoop, lol.
going through life on the ladder disagreeing with what everyone says doesn't "help" anyone, but only makes you "disagreeable"
got any 5's?
No? Go fish......
then go play a teamer
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Post by Tony on Oct 13, 2006 3:27:50 GMT -5
Correcting your mistakes is tearing it down? Would you have prefared i didnt say anything and you continued building habours to get more food?
Also its not helpful giving wrong advice in the strat section of the forum. But if you dont like being corrected next time ill leave it with wrong information, thought i was being helpful but oh well.
As for disagreeing? Its not a matter of opinion, its fact what i write!
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 13, 2006 5:13:37 GMT -5
without fishing boats - you get the food benefit if/as your population grows (those boats you see out there that you didn't build). building a fishing boat gets you the defined +health of the water resource (varies depending on clam/fish, etc) and I think a little +food harbors and lighthouses are actually what gives you more food from your coastal cities (both increase food) the fishing tech when you are inland on a river or lake? some say it doesn't do anything, personally, I think it does - even though you don't need/can't build a fishing boat on an inland river/small lake. TBH a lot of this is just kinda made up, so Tony is right. Course he can be a little rude about it . But what he says is right, you should try and be as accurate as possible when passing on information to others.
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Post by MMV on Oct 13, 2006 8:00:38 GMT -5
Oppinions are not "wrong" but only oppinions
other people have other "oppinions"
that's the COOL thing about the civ games, you can play with whatever ways your own oppinion takes you.
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[KC]Bopper
Worker
The Knight Who Says 'Giddy-Up!'
Posts: 136
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Post by [KC]Bopper on Oct 13, 2006 14:22:30 GMT -5
As they say: an opinion is like an a$$hole everyone's got one
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Post by churchill1 on Oct 13, 2006 14:32:52 GMT -5
Speak for yourself .
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Post by mrgametheory on Nov 7, 2006 11:31:37 GMT -5
In MRGameTheory's case, opinion is like the Sun, Illuminates all, is uncontrollable, unavoidable, gives Super man his Strength, Kills Vampires, and persuades Gorgeous Women to take off their clothes.....
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Post by Lestat on Nov 7, 2006 11:33:28 GMT -5
Mrs wot u have against vampires ?
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Arvcran
Worker
Tourney Director
Remember the purpose of CIV / BtS is enjoyment, entertainment, and hobby!
Posts: 181
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Post by Arvcran on Nov 7, 2006 11:46:30 GMT -5
As they say: an opinion is like an a$$hole everyone's got one What? Anal Analogy? :-D
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Arvcran
Worker
Tourney Director
Remember the purpose of CIV / BtS is enjoyment, entertainment, and hobby!
Posts: 181
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Post by Arvcran on Nov 7, 2006 11:55:16 GMT -5
For early epic games or short games (such as ladder games) - give me a coastal city by a river with grassland, plains hills, sea resources and corn beside river :-). Sea tiles give financial civs good commerce benefits but as tony points out they are not as ... versatile - but if you have 16 or so land tiles to work there is the flexibility ones needs :-).
Coastal cities enable me to build early sea exploration, and more potential wonders. Having sea resources just makes coastal cities that much more .... useful!!!
I wonder if the hammer to work boat compared to hammer to worker comparison is equitable ... after all the work boat is gone after using it :-( .... never understood that ... why not have it 'work' the tile and allow it to move from said tile to either work other tiles or explore the coast while the city workers work a different tile? This is how I would have implemented work boats in the beginning - maybe someone on the forum 'knows' what the design decision was?
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