|
Post by amirsan on Jun 29, 2006 15:38:46 GMT -5
Hey,
Lately during my games I have been very low on cash during the classical ages (speaking of ANC Ctons) and its having a large effect on my ability to get technologies.
This may be mainly because of my mild neglect of cottages. I mean, food and shields seem so valuable, its hard to give up a perfect flood plain or grassland for a cottage.
Whats your strategy for cottages? How early do you build them? Where do you build them, like what tiles, and generally which cities?
Are there other ways to get a good revenue for techs and military in a 130 turn CTON besides cottages?
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on Jun 29, 2006 15:58:03 GMT -5
build em only every grass and floodplain tile u r able to work
and a great person give u about 900 science/gold for free if u want
|
|
|
Post by amirsan on Jun 29, 2006 16:04:59 GMT -5
So according to your advice tommynt, most of your tiles are cottages, so where is the farms? Should I have farms anywhere?
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on Jun 29, 2006 16:40:05 GMT -5
First of all, thank you amirsan for bringing some life to the strategy forums, asking some intelligent questions and actually wanting to get better at this game. Its hard to give up a perfect flood plain or grassland for a cottage. Hm. For me, it's hard to give up a perfect floodplain or grassland for a farm. This is just automatically how i have seen it. In 40 turns time when u r seeing a 2 food 5 gold tile, u will be wondering why u ever even considered building a farm there. There was a time when I made literally no farms(except on resources - wheat, corn etc). I've now toned that down a bit and try and specialize my cities, so in a mfg city I will build some farms if it I need them to be able to work all my mines. Otherwise I just cottage spam. Whats your strategy for cottages? How early do you build them? Where do you build them, like what tiles, and generally which cities? Build them early. This is why early kill isnt often worthwhile. If u wanna win u want to get ur economy going early, to get those nice techs. Especially in short anc ctons. But don't go overboard, mfg is very important of course. Depends if you have an agreesive neighbour and stuff like this. WATCH THE GRAPHS (but remember they ain't perfect) and scout. You seem an intelligent guy so I don't think I need to say this, but unfortunately some players haven' noticed it. Always build a cottage on a grassland river tile before a normal grassland tile. Might as well have that cottage yield an extra gold. Almost always (no, always) ur cap should be pushing out the gold. It can have cottages growing right from the start. Once you have a 2nd city out with good mfg, u can prioritise working cottages in ur cap over working mines. For the reason I just mentioned, and because it will enjoy the modifiers. It should have an early library, it gets the benefit of bureaucracy (which is usually most beneficial because of the 50% more gold [once again because of additional modifiers]) and if u pull a great scientist, and u will if u get the great library (AND IF U HAVE MARBLE U WILL GET THIS!! ) u'll want to build an academy there. Are there other ways to get a good revenue for techs and military in a 130 turn CTON besides cottages?. There is some crazy pyramids - representation - farm it up - work loadsa scientist specialist thing. But i have never seen it done, so u would have to ask someone else. And I don't think it could be done in cton, where ur usually pretty close to one another. Pyramids is pretty expensive and it seems to be just a waste of hammers to me - i never build it) As u can see - I lurve to tech. Ideally u would make ur second city a science city too, then u r making cavalry and riflemen by end of game ;D. This is super risky though. However a great science city consists of flood plains, gold and gems. And a food resource (as ever is always handy), to work more tiles earlier of course, but also to slave buildings u will need - usually only 3 of these - granary, library and aqueduct. Forests are useful for the same reason (they compensate for poor mfg). About GPs. These are great for techs if they give something useful. Check the thread entitled, "I need ur help with GPs" in the general board, to see exactly what techs great people give. Off the top of my head (I'm showing off now), great scientists give about 900 beakers for a tech and other GPs give about 600. (at quick speed).
|
|
|
Post by mrsaturn on Jun 29, 2006 23:06:48 GMT -5
In a similar note- when do you research pottery? If you don't have agriculture or fishing or the wheel to start, what do you do? If you're say, aztec, you have mysticism and hunting. Do you bother with a religion? Do you go mining->bronze? Do you then focus on getting pottery? If you don't find bronze, do you go iron working? If you have some animals nearby, do you get animal husbandry?
Too often I've put off pottery for too long because I like to focus on strategic resources first. I HATE dying early to an axe/chariot rush. But it really hurts later on... especially if there aren't rivers nearby, just a few freshwater lakes.
Also, if you're philosophical, do you make your capital the GP farm? Making farms instead of cottages helps pump out GPs faster...
Finally, when do you STOP making cottages because the game is almost finished? And do you bulldoze your towns at the end to make farms to pump up your population?
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on Jun 30, 2006 1:44:34 GMT -5
I build usually very few farms as I plant only cities which got a food res and that should be enough - but sure if u lack food badly u need a farm that should be no question - and yes after all woods are choped u should have mainly cottages
the time for pot depends on game - in 1-1 late in epics very soon (maybe even before bronze) and in cton oh well I get it after the important techs like bronze animal (iron if i got no bronze) stone if i got stone
at some point in game i m sometimes bored and switch to autoworker - he mainly farms then - I think 25 -20 t before end there s no need for new cottages - better farm then and oh well if u have need for get rid of cottages 10 - 15(max) t before end
|
|
|
Post by WarningU2 on Jun 30, 2006 7:57:24 GMT -5
And this is why the ladder is great.
Honestly doing non reports I wonder if everyone is in a huge circle jerk sometimes but when I see this sort of discussion ... it makes it all worth while. Thanks for giving me hope.
|
|
|
Post by mrsaturn on Jun 30, 2006 8:47:00 GMT -5
I once made the mistake of bulldozing my cottages too soon, and expanding too many cities too fast towards the end of a CTON (T-minus 40 turns or so). I had killed a neighbor and my other side was pretty open as well... I was in 2nd to last place (dead neighbor was last) so I tried to get points by population/territory. I was lucky my still-alive neighbor didn't scout me out- I was at zero percent science and was still losing 20g per turn... my units were all on strike (except my workers who were farming everything), my catapults all deserted, and I was pretty much helpless (but still growing fast). I ended up in 2nd place... but now I know not to completely wreck my economy in the name of growth.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jun 30, 2006 9:35:37 GMT -5
And this is why the ladder is great. Honestly doing non reports I wonder if everyone is in a huge circle jerk sometimes but when I see this sort of discussion ... it makes it all worth while. Thanks for giving me hope.
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on Jun 30, 2006 11:13:13 GMT -5
It's not a good way to play. Seems really dumb to me. But if u really need points to grab no.1 spot i see no prob in starting to farm it up 30t before the end. It gets u a ridiculous amount of points (taht u dont deserve). U will (at the very least) have feudalism at this point so you can mass lonbgbows ( a very efficient defender). And if ur mfg is decent u can replace striking units. However if ur economy was good to begin with (and u build banks in what used to be science cities) this shouildnt be a major issue. In fact you can even continue to tech with specialists and building science.
This is why I think ctons can be too short. This isn't really a test of ur civving skills (is it?)
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jun 30, 2006 12:40:00 GMT -5
What a strange thing to say! There's 250 million Americans and counting. I find it mysterious that you thought not one had a sense of humor.
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on Jul 1, 2006 6:57:42 GMT -5
Comment withdrawn, shying away from controversy. I don't think I said anything like not one American has a GSOH anyway. In any case it was a compliment. Enjoy.
|
|
|
Post by amirsan on Jul 1, 2006 21:54:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the great replies guys! (Sorry for the late response too) It just seems like there is so many variables. Just as I was posting this, I've been ending up in games with really crappy lands, with mostly plains and hills with little grassland, so the only real option was to farm. However, now it seems I have become more comfortable building cottages on floodplains, and irrigating grasslands - especially on rivers. Now my question seems to lead to what about plains? And ofcourse, the only option for tiles that are not on rivers are cottages. So I see your point churchill, why would I build a farm, when the only farm tiles are along a river, and along a river is the best spot to put cottages. Another great point about the capitol, I will definately keep that in mind. I've heard of some strategies such as the Great Person factory in a high mfg city, and also running specialists for research in all your cities with good food production. I might just try cottages for my capitol, and farms for every where else? Anyways, it really seems it depends on the situation of the city and of the type of land in general. However I will definitely try the approach of doing cottages everywhere, with limited farms and see what results that gives me. Maybe I'll even test it out in single player.It just seems like there is so many variables. Just as I was posting this, I've been ending up in games with really crappy lands, with mostly plains and hills with little grassland, so the only real option was to farm. However, now it seems I have become more comfortable building cottages on floodplains, and irrigating grasslands - especially on rivers. Now my question seems to lead to what about plains? And ofcourse, the only option for tiles that are not on rivers are cottages. So I see your point churchill, why would I build a farm, when the only farm tiles are along a river, and along a river is the best spot to put cottages. Another great point about the capitol, I will definately keep that in mind. I've heard of some strategies such as the Great Person factory in a high mfg city, and also running specialists for research in all your cities with good food production. I might just try cottages for my capitol, and farms for every where else? Anyways, it really seems it depends on the situation of the city and of the type of land in general. However I will definitely try the approach of doing cottages everywhere, with limited farms and see what results that gives me.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jul 1, 2006 22:24:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the great replies guys! (Sorry for the late response too) It just seems like there is so many variables. Just as I was posting this, I've been ending up in games with really crappy lands, with mostly plains and hills with little grassland, so the only real option was to farm. However, now it seems I have become more comfortable building cottages on floodplains, and irrigating grasslands - especially on rivers. Now my question seems to lead to what about plains? And ofcourse, the only option for tiles that are not on rivers are cottages. So I see your point churchill, why would I build a farm, when the only farm tiles are along a river, and along a river is the best spot to put cottages. Another great point about the capitol, I will definately keep that in mind. I've heard of some strategies such as the Great Person factory in a high mfg city, and also running specialists for research in all your cities with good food production. I might just try cottages for my capitol, and farms for every where else? Anyways, it really seems it depends on the situation of the city and of the type of land in general. However I will definitely try the approach of doing cottages everywhere, with limited farms and see what results that gives me. Maybe I'll even test it out in single player.It just seems like there is so many variables. Just as I was posting this, I've been ending up in games with really crappy lands, with mostly plains and hills with little grassland, so the only real option was to farm. However, now it seems I have become more comfortable building cottages on floodplains, and irrigating grasslands - especially on rivers. Now my question seems to lead to what about plains? And ofcourse, the only option for tiles that are not on rivers are cottages. So I see your point churchill, why would I build a farm, when the only farm tiles are along a river, and along a river is the best spot to put cottages. Another great point about the capitol, I will definately keep that in mind. I've heard of some strategies such as the Great Person factory in a high mfg city, and also running specialists for research in all your cities with good food production. I might just try cottages for my capitol, and farms for every where else? Anyways, it really seems it depends on the situation of the city and of the type of land in general. However I will definitely try the approach of doing cottages everywhere, with limited farms and see what results that gives me. The only way to do these things is on a city-by-city basis. A good general rule is that a normal city ought to have two or three food surplus so that it keeps growing at a decent rate. So you want to look at the tiles the city has available and build enough farms to get your desired surplus output, and no more. When I think about it I always sort of mentally pair off; this three-food flood plains "pays for" one cottage on a one-food normal plains. Two three-food farms on a grassland pay for one zero-food plains hill mine. One six-food irrigated food resource pays for four cottages on plains! Obviously, for some cities, like a GP farm or a city where you have expensive things to slave in, you actually want a huge surplus. For some cities which are very near the happiness or health cap, you might want just a one- or zero-food surplus (although you'd be better off using the whip!) So you need to evaluate the needs of each city when thinking about the tiles and improvements it gets. Yes, someday you really will be able to do this right on a 15-second blazing timer. EDIT: You've also stepped on a good idea with the cottages-in-your-capital note. The reason why is because of how Bureaucracy works. Bureaucracy multiplies the raw commerce your capital receives; this works synergistically with research and gold multipliers. Let's do a thought experiment here. Suppose your capital is working two gold mines (7c each) and five towns (6c each maybe.) Jesus! That's 44 commerce. Add 8 (is this right?) for your palace (that's always a static free bonus in your capital; it's where your beakers at the start of the game come from.) So your capital is making 52 commerce. Now suppose you have a library (+25% beakers) and an academy (+50% beakers) for a multiplier of 75% beaker rate. For a normal city, this would give you a total of 52 * 1.75 = 91 beakers. That's OK. But Bureaucracy gives you a multiplier on that for your capital. Thing is, the multiplier doesn't add to the beaker one to give you 125% and 117 beakers, even though that would be plenty. Instead, Bureaucracy multiplies your multiplier by modifying your raw commerce. It gives you 50% commerce, so you're making 52 * 1.50 = 78 commerce. Then you get your 75% on top of that; 78 * 1.75 = 136.5 beakers. Jesus! That's a lot of beakers. That's why I love to build an academy in my capital and don't usually bother putting one anywhere else, not to mention Oxford. The catch is, this only works with cottage spam, because specialists don't add to your commerce. Suppose you had crazy farm style and you had 10 scientists churning out 3 beakers per turn each, plus representation for 60 beakers from scientists. That's a whole lot of specialists. Now even though that 60 beakers would beat your 52 cottage beakers in any other city, once you turn on Bureaucracy your cottage capital jumps way ahead, because Bureaucracy doesn't apply to specialist beakers. Your 50% wouldn't add jack.
|
|
|
Post by churchill1 on Jul 2, 2006 8:36:21 GMT -5
One six-food irrigated food resource pays for four cottages on plains!. ;DForget metal and horse and gold. The greatest resources are food resources. They are your friend. Add 8 (is this right?) for your palace Yup.
|
|
|
Post by Gogf on Jul 2, 2006 9:49:35 GMT -5
The palace is indeed eight, but you also get a free commerce point from working your capital's tile, which your city does automatically.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jul 2, 2006 10:26:36 GMT -5
Righto, that's why I figured it was eight, because I knew it ended up as 9. Oddly enough I left that one extra out of my example. I guess it's all the better as 53 isn't nearly as nice a number.
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Jul 3, 2006 11:15:15 GMT -5
And this is why the ladder is great. Honestly doing non reports I wonder if everyone is in a huge circle jerk sometimes but when I see this sort of discussion ... it makes it all worth while. Thanks for giving me hope. That is one of the funnier images I've seen in some time.
|
|
|
Post by Atomation on Jul 3, 2006 12:54:40 GMT -5
I play a little differently from some of the other ladder players, so here's my take on it. Farms are your prime directive in the first 20-25 turns. If you start off with farms, then your cities will grow faster and produce more when growing big is still the most important thing to do. The real key is to hit a practical level of surplus food that will rapidly decrease as your city grows. This concept works best with workshops and hills, because you can irrigate a floodplain with another food resource nearby and have a city grow every 2 turns, then workshop /mine the rest so you can make use of your larger size. Farming without consequence has no point - the main reason you are growing in the first place is so you will have a very high production later, although you could conceivably have an all food city dedicated solely to producing workers/settlers and building by slavery (I have done this, it's not so bad, except people tend to get unhappy really fast in ancient if you whip too much). So the real question is when would I start making cottages? Well, that really depends on the game. Usually I try to specialize a third or fourth city, sometimes both if I am financial, towards research. The first 2 cities are all about production. Later on, I will invariably turn my capital towards research as well, once it hits the bureaucracy - the capital is unique because it does very well as both production and research. Why is building cottages later, using my technique, better? Well, to put it simply, 2 cities with 2x as many cottages (higher early mfg means more workers and more cities) is going to net you more money in the long run, even though those cottages might be 20-25 turns later in the making. The reason for this is fairly simple math - cottages grow fastest in their infancy, so once all those late produced cottages hit the second and third stages of development, you will be at a huge advantage GNP wise. Another concept of the early production technique is simply getting rid of an early neighbor. I can't emphasize enough how much benefit there is to get rid of someone as long as it doesn't take too many resources. My weapon of choice is the chariot for ctons - it is quick to build, fast moving, and pillages cottages for cash like a champ. Making money pillaging is an indirect way to earn gnp via production .
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on Jul 3, 2006 14:42:06 GMT -5
bleh it s not like u can just say - no more food now commerce - to play like u say ato u d need a huge armada of workers costing huge amount of food/shields. I rather stick with 1-1,5 workers per city and just work the quares as what it shall be - and u need cottages ealy to let em grow to towns.
I ll say it agains - Farm are usualöly a waste - they give usually like nothing - at bigger sizes city is harder to keep happy and grows slower - I rather have a size 5 city whioch uses 2 cottages then a size 9 with farms and workshops - at least untill some point of game - sure after worker actons are kinda available for free - all land is worked - a decent amound of untis and buildings is slaved i ll switch to city grow and use all grass tiles as cottages
Farms are only for the few unlucky cities which lack food res or have only something like a plaincow or hillsheep - as soon as u hit soemthing like + 4 food forget Farms imo
btw i see far too often guys cottaging every single tile in their cap - while cap is sometzhing like size 7 or 8. u need only work tiles that u use and cottages grow only if city uses em!
|
|