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Post by MookieNJ on Jun 22, 2006 1:51:22 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I'd like to add that Organized sucks.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 22, 2006 3:31:05 GMT -5
Does it really need to be stated (let alone 3 or 4 times). Oh yeah, it does.
Organised trait totally sucks.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 22, 2006 4:59:59 GMT -5
Hey guys, you know what's totally gay? Organized.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 22, 2006 6:52:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I knew that already.
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Post by Atomation on Jun 22, 2006 20:32:13 GMT -5
Actually, chopping is nerfed more for india. Why? Chop times from 1 to 2 is a greater nerf than 2 to 3. TYhis means that india used to be 100% faster, while now it is only 50% faster. India is still great chopping, no doubt, just less overpowering than it was. I would like to also add that indias workers don't always have any advantage building roads, mines, etc. since regular workers can move a square and build as well...regular workers just require a little more foresight to use efficiently.
The usefulness of organized really depends on how many cottages you have and how much you expand. If you expand quite a lot and tend not to build many cottages, organized is amazing. If you build lots of cottages and hardly expand, it will amount to absolutely nothing. It is a matter of playing style. I personally feel that india is best played by expanding tons and concentrating on production and food, so lends itself very nicely to asoka. Industrial trait only grants you what, 40 hammers per city only when you build a forge, then it has no use after that? It's nice to have that forge up a bit sooner, especially if you are front row, but later on in the game its advantage is diminished.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 22, 2006 22:08:02 GMT -5
The reason that I like ind for renaissance is that since you start with mercantilism, that quick forge not only speeds up everything by 25% but gives you a free engineer specialist, which is basically another free hammer in the city. Seeing as generally renaissance games are production-centric and every city is going to want a forge, it's a big plus in my book.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 23, 2006 4:53:51 GMT -5
which is basically another free hammer in the city. Oh holy of holies. I think I have found something I know and you don't. Well I'm sure you know it but you just forgot it here. It actually gives 2 hammers not one.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 23, 2006 6:51:09 GMT -5
Yeah, but the nutsty "citizen" fake specialist that you get if you don't have any specialist buildings to assign to gives you 1 hammer itself, so the engineer is only one extra hammer on top of what you'd be getting otherwise.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 24, 2006 0:52:04 GMT -5
Damn. Foiled again. I'll get you next time, Mr Elledge.
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Post by mrsaturn on Jul 20, 2006 3:09:44 GMT -5
So the leader traits are getting changed in Warlords, but I wanted to take one final look at the choices-
It seems like the best trait for ren is... industrial. Fast forges just seem to be so so so critical. Without industrial, it'll take at least 15-20 turns to get a forge out, or 4 chops that could have gone to workers or settlers. With industrial, it's half, or you can rush it in 2 chops. Production seems to be the factor that wins games- not GNP. Which do you see more often- a team being overwhelmed by cavalry, or a team teching to rifles?
Every city that's building units should have a forge in it- if you get the forge out twice as fast, you reap the benefits faster and you can make the city useful faster. That said, here's the usual list of leaders picked-
India (always) Napoleon (always) Saladin (always)
Elizabeth (usually) Huyana Capac (usually) Isabella (usually)
Alexander (rare)
Everyone else (never)
I think Elizabeth or Capac can be kicked out- as aggressive, Inca like everyone else mostly build cavs anyway so it's useless. Again I think fin is not a critical trait, since even with bad teching you usually get to cavs within 4 turns of the other team. 2 philosophical is nice, but with Saladin, you can either have him churn out 2 artists if he's in the middle, or have india or spain switch fast to pacifism to make one.
So who gets the last spot? I'd say it's between Qin and Roosevelt, with FDR getting the edge. I think America can become a production machine with lots of cities with low upkeep.
I seriously hate Elizabeth and Huyana... they take forever to build their empire, and I got so spoiled when I found out how fast Nappy and Gandhi could expand and make useful cities.
Well, it's all moot soon anyway...
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Post by mrsaturn on Jul 20, 2006 3:39:00 GMT -5
With that said, let's take a look at the new leaders!
Egypt Rameses II- Ind and Spi- India without the fast workers. Still great! England Churchill- Cha and Pro- ugh, Vicky and Liz are so much better Rome- Augustus- Cre and Org- haha, no Russia Stalin- Agg and Ind- banned anyway, but he's awesome. Carthage Hannibal- Fin and Cha- nope, bad UU too Celts Brennus- Spi and Cha- nope Korea Wang Kon- Fin and Pro- great UU for medi, but not ren Ottoman Mehmed- Exp and Org- decent UU and unique building, but still weak Viking Ragnar- Agg and Fin- the new Huyana with nice unique building... possible Zulu Shaka- Agg and Exp- no
And the usual suspects- Saladin- Pro and Spi- there goes the Phi... and with that I think Sal gets kicked out of ren. If there's a lack of horse or iron he's nice, but for that reason alone I don't think he's worth it. Victoria- Fin and Imp- Imp seems awesome with faster generals... then again England doesn't usually see much military action. Probably a better choice out there Liz- no change- still decent, but probably better choice out there Louis- no change- after what happened to Nappy, I might be more inclined to take Louis instead Napoleon- Cha and Org- oh god, what have they done? No more fast forges, no more triple muskets. Still a critical UU, but Cha and Org? I'd rather take Ind. Huyana Capac- Fin and Ind- he turned into Qin. Since Qin was never picked before, I think that's farewell to Huyana. Gandhi- Spi and Phi- he will fill saladin's old role. Still better than Asoka, pity he doesn't have fast forges anymore. Genghis Khan- Agg and Imp- hello and welcome to ren. Better than Liz since he's aggressive so his units will actually fight and survive. Cyrus- Cha and Imp- if generals turn out to be awesome, Cyrus might not be the butt of any jokes anymore. Dunno if he's better than Vicky though. Julius Caesar- Imp and Org- Vicky or Cyrus probably better Catherine- Cre and Imp- still banned, and Stalin still better
So I see the new teams being- Gandhi- Spi and Phi Genghis Khan- Agg and Imp Rameses II- Spi and Ind Louis- Cre and Ind Isabella- Spi and Exp Vicky/Cyrus/Ragnar
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Post by Elledge on Jul 20, 2006 6:47:26 GMT -5
My number one pick now would be Gandhi, then Isabella, then Genghis Khan, then Capac (his UB basically means he's Cre as well; he'd be my favorite civ to have in the back.)
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Post by swissy on Jul 20, 2006 17:29:33 GMT -5
With the UB, Capac becomes a primetime back civ. Qin was never picked as England's UU, Capac's old AGG trait and Gandhi/Nappy's old IND trait insured there was no room for old Qin. I've seen Qin on a very few occassions in a 6 v 6 with a one civ per limit. There were just to many better choices than Qin.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 20, 2006 17:57:02 GMT -5
Well, as it stands, I'd take Qin over Huayana. I don't understand the appeal of Agg for non-Napoleon civs.
(But I've had this argument a lot of times.)
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Post by notagoodname on Jul 20, 2006 19:30:15 GMT -5
Well agg with theo and a barracks = pikes with formation upgrade straight off (+145% total on cav). On a 5v5 it's nice to have an agg on your team as he can give the others his horse and just build pikes/musketmen with formation. That said i also typically don't bother with anyone other than napoleon - a single agg civ should be enough to work around a lack of horses unless you are really unlucky or didn't expand at the start far enough.
An interesting thing with egypt is that they can build chariots in ren (even though horse archers are available). A couple of early war chariots cost nearly nothing and are great at worker harrasment. I've used them in 6v6 ren teamers a few times with success but the traits are currently weak. Come warlords egypt will be huge with great ren traits and a cheap early rusher.
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Post by Elledge on Jul 20, 2006 20:51:47 GMT -5
Well agg with theo and a barracks = pikes with formation upgrade straight off (+145% total on cav). On a 5v5 it's nice to have an agg on your team as he can give the others his horse and just build pikes/musketmen with formation. That said i also typically don't bother with anyone other than napoleon - a single agg civ should be enough to work around a lack of horses unless you are really unlucky or didn't expand at the start far enough. An interesting thing with egypt is that they can build chariots in ren (even though horse archers are available). A couple of early war chariots cost nearly nothing and are great at worker harrasment. I've used them in 6v6 ren teamers a few times with success but the traits are currently weak. Come warlords egypt will be huge with great ren traits and a cheap early rusher. The thing is, I never build pikes. The only time I need pikemen are defending coastals and defending my culture bomb city; there's hardly any other use for pikes. (OK, and defending an early camel rush.) In the knight era you'll do better with other knights and catapults, using muskets to defend terrain; in the cavalry era they just don't have good enough odds and the one movement cripples them. At least in my experience.
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Post by mrsaturn on Jul 21, 2006 3:10:13 GMT -5
With the new horse stable, mongolia might be a little too overpowered. A city with barracks +3 ger +4 vassalage +2 theocracy +2
Gives lvl 4 mounted units right off the bat. I think barracks are nerfed to +3, I'm not sure though. Even triple pikes won't dent a triple cavalry.
And I take back what I said about Qin- I prefer him over the current Huyana and Elizabeth. I didn't see Huyana's new unique building- he's definitely great for the backline, and still decent on front because his cities will be producing faster.
Being Elizabeth on the front sucks, because you're taking longer to make useful cities (long forge and barracks), and your traits are poor for the situation. I think that penalty is far worse than having an artist arrive a few turns later- again, I think spain or india should be responsible for one artist using no-anarchy pacifism, depending on location.
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Post by tommynt on Jul 21, 2006 4:09:57 GMT -5
pikes are great in defense and if clever used also in attack - sadly most players accept stalements on inland sea map instead using different units to it s best. in last ren teamer i subbed in slaightly before cavs and showed how a attack has to be done. If a attack is done the rigth way u ll allways loose less units as u kill
dont forget that pikes got only halfbuildcosts as cavs and slaughter em easy in a 2 vs1 and got even good chances in 1-1 if cav dont have choke
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Post by tommynt on Jul 21, 2006 4:10:42 GMT -5
pikes are great in defense and if clever used also in attack - sadly most players accept stalements on inland sea map instead using different units to it s best. in last ren teamer i subbed in slaightly before cavs and showed how a attack has to be done. If a attack is done the rigth way u ll allways loose less units as u kill
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Post by decepticon on Jul 24, 2006 6:01:21 GMT -5
It seems like the best trait for ren is... industrial. Fast forges just seem to be so so so critical. Without industrial, it'll take at least 15-20 turns to get a forge out, or 4 chops that could have gone to workers or settlers. With industrial, it's half, or you can rush it in 2 chops. Production seems to be the factor that wins games- not GNP. . Build order is WORKER (chopped...move a worker on to forest first turn if not on already) then the Forge (again chopping) with an Industrial civ it will take one chop or 3 turns not 15-20. OMG you'd be dead at that rate. non-industrius should have one out in 5 turns. Turn on the forge, start chopping same turn, move one forest over or whatever and chop again on turn 4 and viola forge in 5 turns.
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