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Post by zzZhenon on Apr 1, 2007 8:53:09 GMT -5
You cannot be the town heroe giving justice by yourself as you like, there are rules to respect. If you don't like the moment the pause is done, you contact admins and tell them about the situation, you don't unpause because this don't please you. At least it's the way i see the situation. I disagree. Pausing is a priviledge not a right. Nowhere in the rules does it say: "You can pause any time you wish to and as often as you like."
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 1, 2007 9:58:07 GMT -5
You cannot be the town heroe giving justice by yourself as you like, there are rules to respect. If you don't like the moment the pause is done, you contact admins and tell them about the situation, you don't unpause because this don't please you. At least it's the way i see the situation. The only rule you can use here is a rule 15 - GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP The basic premise of the ladder is to facilitate players finding each other, who are devoted to Civilization IV, so they may compete in a sportsman-like manner. Our philosophy is play hard, but play fairly. It is NOT winning at any cost. Any player exploiting game deficiencies as determined by the Admin Team risk expulsion or severe penalties. But here you have one problem - pausing game at the very start of a turn so to move units when you know for a fact that you are about to be attacked falls under the same rule as unpausing. But in that case unpausing obviously goes after pausing and it only corrects first case of unsportsmanship behaviour (that is, pausing). So, obviously, OS are to blame in that situation. I'm sorry if you consider the CCC like the most important thing in the world, but some people got a life out of it, and when your work boss call, you answer is the rule for many people around the world, and you do not always decide when you get called... Obviously, even in that case you do have 20 seconds so to pause in the middle of a turn instead of pausing at the very start of a turn when you know for a fact that you'll be attacked. So, forget that pathetic excuse.
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Post by mansurji on Apr 1, 2007 10:59:04 GMT -5
You know what emergency is ?
About good sportmanship i like it when MUD give lesson ( MUD = Moving Unsportly to Destroy ? ), and unpausing a game when someone in other team is away is not the good description i'll give of it.
You can find any kind of excuse about it, what you made will remain the same.
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 1, 2007 14:34:22 GMT -5
You know what emergency is ? ;D Man, put that bullsh it where the sun doesn't shine. You may just not take a telephone receiver for 20 seconds, if someone really needs you he can wait that much. Even if you take it, you just say "20 seconds please" and that's it. Unless you're working as a firefighter, a phone call is not an excuse so to pause at the very start of a turn. And if you're a firefighter, you shouldn't be playing CCC during that time. About good sportmanship i like it when MUD give lesson ( MUD = Moving Unsportly to Destroy ? ), and unpausing a game when someone in other team is away is not the good description i'll give of it. Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it! You can find any kind of excuse about it, what you made will remain the same. No, wait, WE don't need any excuses. So far YOU failed to make a proper excuse why had absolutely no choice but to pause at the very start of a turn when you knew for sure you were about to be attacked. Until you'll be able to make something even remotely believable, we don't need to say anything at all, it's solely OS fault.
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Post by mansurji on Apr 1, 2007 15:17:46 GMT -5
haha ellestar, i love you dude
I don't know the english for "Mauvaise foi", but you're an example.
About MUD speaking of good sportmanship, it's a bit like nazis speaking of humanity, or russians speakin of water : they obviously know nothing about, but they can keep trying, noone will trust them. Too much History i guess.
Well, if my 3 mates that were in ren are as naughty as you guys looks like, they could have use pause as an excuse to defend ( i don't know if it's something common in C4P, but looks like you guys are focused on this, and know long about... never happen on civfr... another vision of gameplay i think ). Unfortunately, these 3 players are among the most honest players in OS and even in french league. They would NEVER ( read my word, and read it again if you didnt understood ) use a pause as an excuse to do moves, we don't even know how to do this.
Cathare gave us some hours ago the explanation. he works in a nightclub, and he was late at works ( was saturday night in france ). His boss call. I'd like to know how many of you/us would answer and tell : << 20 sec boss, i'm busy >>. Really, i'd like to know. No question on why he was late, it's not the point. Sometimes games lenght, no prob. But don't point him for answering and pause the game, when all of you know how these "around-the-turn-end" seconds are important. One of you figure to answer a call in this situation, when you need to focus at first on the game ?
Ok, the game is pause. But if you can't trust the players you are playing with to be honest and not to use this time, then you have a real matter... Is this C4P ? On Civfr, even on CCC when we play between french, we can give others some pauses even at critical situations with no back thoughts or insidious ideas... Something's broke by your side, guys.... you missed a point in the word GAME... which letter are you missing ? I don't know, but it must be an important one.
The one you're lacking when you use the sentence "they failed first" as an excuse to unpause a game when one of the player you are playing with is missing... Really, i do think it's the lamest thing to do on a civ game... Unpausing when someone is missing on the otherside. You can ask people i've played with on this CCC and on others, i always check if the opponent team is full before unpausing. It looks like the minima respect for others, and i hope everyone do same... But by now i already hear you crying : << they weren't right to pause... >> Ok, it was an emergency, the kind of that happen once in a life. It's sad, but it happens. If you think it was cheating, you should have asked a ruling of the concerned TD. Playing the Robin Hood at this time by embracing the honourless side now give only troubles, and enlight more than necessary what you did.
Unpausing a game while other team isnt ready, to take a town... I guess no use for others words after this.
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Post by knupp on Apr 1, 2007 15:32:58 GMT -5
I see nothing wrong with pausing at the beginning of a turn. I'd rather somebody do that than in the middle or end of the turn.
If I was attacking somebody and had units in their land and they paused then hell yea I'd be pissed. But I wouldn't take matters into my own hands, talk to the TD. That is what they are there for. Either way that's a moot point. It looks like MUD had all of their units in their own land anyways, not in OS's land. How was OS supposed to know that MUD was attacking them? shrug
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 1, 2007 16:05:32 GMT -5
I don't know the english for "Mauvaise foi", but you're an example. Of course, i'm the one to blame because i pointed out faults in your logic. Personal attacks are always welcome too, everyone does that when he has nothing to say. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Attacks About MUD speaking of good sportmanship, it's a bit like nazis speaking of humanity, or russians speakin of water : they obviously know nothing about, but they can keep trying, noone will trust them. Too much History i guess. We do have plenty of water here in Russia. I think you need to learn geography. Well, if my 3 mates that were in ren are as naughty as you guys looks like, they could have use pause as an excuse to defend ( i don't know if it's something common in C4P, but looks like you guys are focused on this, and know long about... never happen on civfr... another vision of gameplay i think ). It's a well-known exploit, it's being used not only in C4P or Civilization 4 but also in about any other multiplayer game with a pause. Even if you can't give orders during a pause in a particular game, you can always use a pause to break another player's concentration. So, a pause during a critical moments is considered a bad sportmanship absolutely everywhere. Unfortunately, these 3 players are among the most honest players in OS and even in french league. They would NEVER ( read my word, and read it again if you didnt understood ) use a pause as an excuse to do moves, we don't even know how to do this. And MUD is a den of cheaters. We got your point. I bet you're absolutely unbiased. By the way, even a i-claim-that-i'm-a-total-noob-who-knows-nothing guy like you can use that exploit, you just give orders during a pause. It's so simple that you don't need to know how to do it at all, you just give orders as usual. he works in a nightclub, and he was late at works ( was saturday night in france ). His boss call. I'd like to know how many of you/us would answer and tell : << 20 sec boss, i'm busy >>. Really, i'd like to know. He still has an option not to take a telephone receiver for 20 seconds. I see that you somehow "forgot" to adress this line. Bad luck, you can't just ignore it, try again. By the way, i'll tell it to a boss if i'm at home. Ok, the game is pause. But if you can't trust the players you are playing with to be honest and not to use this time, then you have a real matter... Is this C4P ? On Civfr, even on CCC when we play between french, we can give others some pauses even at critical situations with no back thoughts or insidious ideas... Something's broke by your side, guys.... you missed a point in the word GAME... which letter are you missing ? I don't know, but it must be an important one. Well, it's a tournament and you're using a known exploit. I don't see how it's ok and why anyone should believe that you're not actually using it. If you think it was cheating, you should have asked a ruling of the concerned TD. Priceless Now you give that advice to us That's what your team should have done instead of that whine on forums. Unpausing a game while other team isnt ready, to take a town... I guess no use for others words after this. "Unpausing a game while other team isnt ready, to take a town" is EXACTLY the same as pausing the game so not to let other team to take your town. However, i'll repeat it once again because you forget it all the time. Unpausing was made so to prevent an exploit with a pausing, it wasn't an exploit in itself.
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 1, 2007 16:08:16 GMT -5
If I was attacking somebody and had units in their land and they paused then hell yea I'd be pissed. But I wouldn't take matters into my own hands, talk to the TD. That is what they are there for. Either way that's a moot point. It looks like MUD had all of their units in their own land anyways, not in OS's land. How was OS supposed to know that MUD was attacking them? shrug Well, it was said here. MUD made a front city, used a great artist there and put a cavalry there. MUD already lost one player so it was obvious that MUD will attack.
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Post by deviousdevil on Apr 1, 2007 17:28:39 GMT -5
Sounds like OS got screwed by MUD and the admins decision.
If pause is put on by one side, you can't just remove it and yes emergencies happen.
I remember my cat taking a strange fit during a OCC and I checked on cat then returned to ask if i could resign without having to report giving how much I was leaving. No deal.
My cat proved to be okay after a few minutes and we've subsquently had the problem diagnosed and dealt with.
As for those horrid people that weren't compassionate, well when I was able to return I took over my automated civ and took all those units stacked up and killed all 6 of them. REVENGE.
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Post by Tony on Apr 1, 2007 17:51:42 GMT -5
Man im just reading about the CCC on the forums now and i must say its funny as hell, MUD cheated, OS cheated, SD2R cheated, games being played next next week, connection issues, people not turning up for games. Was a good read, when taking a break from revision. great stuff!! PS has there ever been a CCC when a french team hasnt complained about being cheated?
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Post by whitebull on Apr 1, 2007 18:00:07 GMT -5
Elestar, saying u're a guy of "mauvaise foi" isn't a personal attack, this is what is perspiring from your sentences.
One guy made somethin that seems totally unfair to any regular guy, and u try to prove that the victim is the torturer ...
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Post by Ellestar on Apr 1, 2007 22:32:33 GMT -5
Elestar, saying u're a guy of "mauvaise foi" isn't a personal attack, this is what is perspiring from your sentences. A link wasn't enough? Ok, i can post it here. Generally, a personal attack is committed when a person substitutes abusive remarks for evidence when examining another person's claims or comments. It is considered a personal attack when a person starts referencing a supposed flaw or weakness in an individual's personality, beliefs, lifestyle, convictions or principles, and use it as a debate tactic or as a means of avoiding discussion of the relevance or truthfulness the person's statement. It works on the reasoning that, by discrediting the source of a logical argument, namely the person making it, the argument itself can be weakened.Besides, he said the same about MUD several times. So, there was several personal attacks in his posts I thought i shoudn't have quoted them all with a remark "personal attack" but you guys are so blind that you don't see even the one i quoted. P.S. "mauvaise foi" is a personal attack. I saw that trick with a pause in Warcraft 3, i saw it in Civ 4 ladder, i saw it in Quake III.
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Apr 1, 2007 23:20:03 GMT -5
Just noting, those cav rosieta was moving in the city were in a stack, he wouldn't have had time to separate the 2 cav, except under pause, which would make it an exploit for them to reach the city. Thus without pausing the result would have been that 0 reinforcement ever reach the city in the fast move situation.
And pausing the game changes it not to be a fast move situation anymore, = an exploit.
If you want argue it more go ahead, but that's how it is.
#2 when I took the city there were several cav that had movement left(could still attack, 7-9 cav conquered the city square for example), ofcourse if you replay the situation the combat rolls can change. I also had reinforcement of additional 6 cavs or so that didn't even get to join the attack, that could have hit next turn to follow the 15 cav that did hit this turn. These are moot points, anyway since you shouldn't pause to change fast move order.
I understand an emergency, but you could have well paused the game at end of last turn or later this turn. Unpausing and finishing the attack move was the only proper thing to do. It was going to take place that very second anyway, so in any case you wouldn't have made any moves, so why complain about it? I was hitting with my cav the same second your team paused. That's why I just completed the attack, only right thing to do in my mind.
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Post by MookieNJ on Apr 1, 2007 23:40:03 GMT -5
I understand that emergencies come up and people need pauses. I don't particularly enjoy waiting around, but stuff comes up and I really do appreciate it when people give me a few minutes when I need them. Also, if it's a real emergency and you're worried about someone unpausing, just drop from the game. You get 10 minutes to return and nobody can unpause from the vote screen. Problem solved!
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Post by mansurji on Apr 1, 2007 23:55:57 GMT -5
Just noting, those cav rosieta was moving in the city were in a stack, he wouldn't have had time to separate the 2 cav, except under pause, which would make it an exploit for them to reach the city. Thus without pausing the result would have been that 0 reinforcement ever reach the city in the fast move situation. And pausing the game changes it not to be a fast move situation anymore, = an exploit. If you want argue it more go ahead, but that's how it is. #2 when I took the city there were several cav that had movement left(could still attack, 7-9 cav conquered the city square for example), ofcourse if you replay the situation the combat rolls can change. I also had reinforcement of additional 6 cavs or so that didn't even get to join the attack, that could have hit next turn to follow the 15 cav that did hit this turn. These are moot points, anyway since you shouldn't pause to change fast move order. I understand an emergency, but you could have well paused the game at end of last turn or later this turn. Unpausing and finishing the attack move was the only proper thing to do. It was going to take place that very second anyway, so in any case you wouldn't have made any moves, so why complain about it? I was hitting with my cav the same second your team paused. That's why I just completed the attack, only right thing to do in my mind. About the reinforcement, noone will never know, as you tricked our team. Believe me, OS team and french league are not the kind of players to use nor to know the exploit you are mentionning, that might explain they didnt thought it was harmful. LeCathare, Rosieta and Teter are regular players, if someone that ever played with them remind any dubious action, please go on... The matter is Cathare was afk, Rosieta should have been ready to fast move in the town, but you unpaused the game to fast move at the time you wanted, because you was pissed about the pause. I understand you was pissed, it was a real bad time to pause, and perosnnaly i always try to avoid it specially at the very end of a turn before a fast move, but this change nothing on your action, and still nominate you for a punishment. You moved to semi by unpausing a game, facts will remain the same. And for ellestar : yeah dude, hard to find arguments to counter a sentence like : << Cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it! >> ... Btw i know that if you melt ice it gives water, no prob, but that wasn't my point and i guess people understood what i meant. Notice that you answered about my geography, not about my argument. Feel free to explain why. The "mauvaise foi" i was speaking about is the sentence when you claim that MUD was totally in his right, and OS were solely responsible. My whole post is an answer to this, changing nothing on your "mauvaise foi". ( ill had to find the english word for it )
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Post by mansurji on Apr 2, 2007 0:07:17 GMT -5
It would be a shame Mookie to need this action, but vs MUD it might be the only thing if you want your back to be safe.
For the sentence, ellestar, i somehow "forgot" to adress, i don't know exactly what happen, but perhaps he already delayed the call for 20 secs, to finish his turn and not to pause before a fast move. Even, if you see an attack starting and you have to take an important call, what will you do ? On such actions you need a maximum concentration, all of you know that.
That's perhaps what happen, and perhaps he would have had a few more secondes to think and handle the attack, but the greatness is to win despite such actions. Not the way MUD choosed, unfortunately. Victory at any cost, should it be by loosing glory and honour... At least you had the victory.
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Post by DrShot on Apr 2, 2007 0:27:23 GMT -5
ok, I only read this part, so I will comment only on as much. I am tired of the 'cheat ' and bring me down threads that clutter the forums after the CCC EVERY TIME. "Just noting, those cav rosieta was moving in the city were in a stack, he wouldn't have had time to separate the 2 cav, except under pause, which would make it an exploit for them to reach the city. Thus without pausing the result would have been that 0 reinforcement ever reach the city in the fast move situation. " Unless you were the player OR watched really really closely you would not know if the stack was actually a " stack" or a pille of like units occupying a singular space. Alow me to explain: I have 10 units they are on roads 4 spaces from where the stack will end, in neutral land, thus movement is not a factor. I have been moving these for 2 turns, they came from 2 different cities, 6 from one city 4 from another. On the previous turn I moved them onto the same tile, now they appear to be a " stack" in the traditinal sense. However there are actually two stacks. I could click with mouse on the stack and then right click the one that activates or use directinal keys. Do same with second 'stack'. mouse then Directional pad is very fast if it is practice done b4, I have, in SP and MP. I have no clue if this was what was done or not, just wanted to point out there often is more than seems out in the open.
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Post by DrShot on Apr 2, 2007 0:29:42 GMT -5
"PS has there ever been a CCC when a french team hasnt complained about being cheated?"
LMAO - Civ 3 Perhaps?
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Apr 2, 2007 1:03:10 GMT -5
Anyway I'm tired of this accusation thread, I did not try to gain any advantage by unpausing. It was simply the right thing to do, to complete the attack. As I was moving the units the same time you hit the pause.
It isn't of relevance wether you knew or not how to exploit pause or if it was intentional. It can be done, and if you gave those cav a destination before unpausing it would have been cheating.
Point is I moved at that second, were you moving those 2 cav in the same second or going to move after? Did his pause interrupt your move? That is the question. Would you have waited and not touch the units before pause was taken off. I doubt it.
You just shouldn't do this kind of pausing cuz you can abuse the exploit even if you didn't think about intentionally "exploiting".
Stop the needless argument really, you are making personal attacks against me and my clan over this. That is not what good sportsmanship is, if you claim to be the herald of that, and we are the evil dark forces.
You can clearly see btw dr.shot. That he just moved those units in stack, reason why those 2 cav didn't make it to the city when he/she was trying to fast move them in(you can see this because all but 2 have lost moves = they have moved at start of this turn, the 2 are still in same stack, meaning they have either not moved at all or moved with the stack, either way it would take a separate move command for them to reach the city). Pausing and separating the 2 from stack would be onlyway he could ever get them to the city, which would be an exploit. Or selecting the 2 cav and moving them to the city, either way he would not have made the move before I made my attack, since I was already doing the move.
I made the choise I thought was the only fair decision at the time, and I don't regret it one bit. I feel it was the only right thing to do.
You can disagree if you like but, now please, I don't want more to see anymore insults/personal attacks. Downgrading your self to personal attacks and insults is not the way to handle situations like this. It only makes you look incredibly childish and immature. And shows who actually takes it too seriously.
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Post by mansurji on Apr 2, 2007 2:13:22 GMT -5
Yes, time to close this i guess
Stay on your position, i stay on mine, and we'll see what will be the future.
Sorry if sometime i let myself getting involved in threads such a way, and when Ellestar do same i should know what happen ;D
But i had a message to send, and i hope it has been receipt.
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