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Post by MookieNJ on Aug 30, 2006 0:36:04 GMT -5
I suppose going event by event and seeding clans based on the last CCC's event standings is a fair solution. I agree that the top two clans in Renaissance should not face each other in the first round, the top two clans in Industrial should not face each other in the first round, the worst two clans in Future should not face each other in the first round, etc. It's a proposal to consider for sure.
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Post by whitebull on Aug 30, 2006 3:20:44 GMT -5
I have another idea : why playing the CCC ? Better to give victory to the last winner, it will go faster ;D (no no, even my joke isn't serious ) Now, serious dumb questions : - is ren team of a clan could be considered as same on 2 CCC (players could change, etc..) ? - is it really fair to make it easier for those we consider as better ? (ok, this is a question ask by a guy from little clan ) Edit : By the way, OS have meet MUD on 1st turn on medie event, as a seeding would approximatively said, and we won, so actually, i am not sure my points are really usefull for this argue
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Post by Bantams on Aug 30, 2006 5:48:27 GMT -5
IMO The current system is fine as it is i mean you can see who youre up against so just put youre best available players up to play them (we were short on numbers of players available last ccc) perhaps allowing substitutions in all events and all rounds maybe a better idea than seeding clans
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Post by rupman on Aug 30, 2006 14:03:38 GMT -5
Practically maybe but a team could theoretically win the CCC by placing 2nd or 3rd in all events. The Arizona State wrestling team once won the National Title by every wrestler on the team placing 3rd at the tourney. So that sort of stuff does happen.
Yeah like lets just give the World Cup to Brazil every time or the World Series to the Yankees, etc etc... There is a reason they play the games. Upsets do happen. Yes sometimes clans do change teams around from one CCC to the next but some don't. If you are the one changing teams around it is likely because you got owned. A noob team shouldn't get an easy pass to 2 points by beating another noob team.
Most teams aren't set for a half an hour to 15 minutes before the event. That doesn't really give a clan a whole lot of time to prepare. unlimited subs is kinda lame because then you would see guys like Tommy, Mookie etc... playing in 8-11 events instead of the max of five now. It's a "Clan" Championship not a one man tourney.
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Post by longhorn on Aug 30, 2006 18:01:30 GMT -5
Without qualifying events (ie Olympics) I think seeding teams is a very bad idea. CCC isn't about which clan was best last CCC, 3 CCC's ago or even 3 years ago -- its about whos best that weekend. Teams can change, strategies can change, and who's the best can change.
The current system of random draw bracket is as fair as it can be. I see no problem with this tried and true method.
If I were to offer a suggestion for improvement, it would be the following-- space out the events slightly more and if possible run the small events closer to the larger events (IE a 3v3 would start after a 1v1, not another 3v3 --if possible).
For the Ironman:
Keep the event out of tradition but stay true to the event of play till you have a winner. Be aware of the problems encountered this most recent time, and strive not to let the same mistakes be repeated. Possibly consider moving the iron man to event #1 as a precursor to the CCC (If its absolutely too much to finish a game in one day). For example consider starting this event as early as Wednesday evening for a 4 hour session, continue the next day for another 4, and finally resume Friday and go to the very end.
Just some ideas,
-lh
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Post by swissy on Aug 30, 2006 18:08:07 GMT -5
I suppose going event by event and seeding clans based on the last CCC's event standings is a fair solution. I agree that the top two clans in Renaissance should not face each other in the first round, the top two clans in Industrial should not face each other in the first round, the worst two clans in Future should not face each other in the first round, etc. It's a proposal to consider for sure. That would involve seeding by registration number. Clans would have to enter an event in a specific order. As it is now the majority of events never get off until 15-30 mins after the advertised start time. Add another layer to this and we'll have events starting an hour late. Events would have to be canceled and remade if a seeded clan would all the suddenly show up just before the time registration closed. I personally would have a problem running a tourney that way.
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Post by rupman on Aug 30, 2006 20:25:35 GMT -5
Have you read the thread?! It's not fair LH! I went over the problems. To refresh your memory. OOD and GOD playing each other in the first round while MDR and MUD play in the first round is not fair. OOD or GOD would be hard pressed to beat either MDR or MUD particularly in a team event, yet in an 8 team event OOD or GOD would score 2 points while either MDR or MUD would end up with nothing. It's slowed for the best two clans in an event to not face each other in the final. Seeding helps prevent that. Random draws if anything encourage it. Every bracket I'm in, I look to see who my clan faces or could face in a round. I pray for the side of the bracket that has a bunch of lower tier clans in it, because it means an easy road, while I dread the side of the bracket that's full of top tier clans.
The starts in Civ are unfair enough as it is. Not seeding a tourney just adds to that.
There is such an easy solution to that it boggles my mind you even brought up the so called "problem". Have teams registerd 30 minutes or an hour before the actual start of the event rather than 5 minutes before. Besides I'm sure there is some way to have the seeding done by computer since it's already done that way now, just randomly. So it could be done in seconds either way.
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Post by longhorn on Aug 30, 2006 20:41:21 GMT -5
Have you read the thread?! ******************* I read everything that you had to say. To clarify, I STRONGLY disagree with your position and your assessment!
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Post by Ellestar on Aug 31, 2006 0:15:28 GMT -5
Have you read the thread?! It's not fair LH! I went over the problems. To refresh your memory. OOD and GOD playing each other in the first round while MDR and MUD play in the first round is not fair. OOD or GOD would be hard pressed to beat either MDR or MUD particularly in a team event, yet in an 8 team event OOD or GOD would score 2 points while either MDR or MUD would end up with nothing. I think it's even better when it happens. It gives you a chance to kick your opponent in a first round and deny them any points.
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Post by churchill1 on Aug 31, 2006 1:28:49 GMT -5
Have you read the thread?! It's not fair LH! I went over the problems. To refresh your memory. OOD and GOD playing each other in the first round while MDR and MUD play in the first round is not fair. OOD or GOD would be hard pressed to beat either MDR or MUD particularly in a team event, yet in an 8 team event OOD or GOD would score 2 points while either MDR or MUD would end up with nothing. I think it's even better when it happens. It gives you a chance to kick your opponent in a first round and deny them any points. Yes but it also gives a chance for ur clan to get no points and ur closest opponent to get full points (i guess it's ten - i don't know)
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Post by longhorn on Aug 31, 2006 8:23:06 GMT -5
Am I the only one who finds it darn insulting that a few people honestly beleive that the OS and GOD and all the other clans are inferior to 2 or 3? Why even bother having CCC as someone else wrote here, we can simply let MDR and MUD alternate ownership of the 'cup' and save a whole lot of time.
Im sorry but any clan can get better if they are willing to put the time and effort into practice and recruitment like MDR and MUD. A new clan can emerge, a dormant clan could re-emerge-- and what- you want to allow a clan to coast based on their past acheivements alone? Or because they won in a previous CCC- you think they should be allowed to have the 'easy road' to the finals in every event?
One of the nice things about the CCC is after its over, the score is reset to 0. All clans that want to compete now have an equal chance to win the next one. If you want to win again, you need to earn it- not coast to the next victory.
Finally stop degrading other clans or trying to impose 'your' ranking of them on everyone else. There are some excellent players in each and every clan, and they can and should all have an equal chance of winning each and every event.
That is why RANDOM seeding is fairest! Remember that only the top 8 clans at the end of day 2 are allowed to compete in day 3 events. That would make all day 3 events making sure that the worst a 'top' clan could possibly meet is the current 8th place clan.
Getting off my soapbox now,
-lh
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Post by rupman on Aug 31, 2006 9:45:35 GMT -5
Um I'm in ..A.. just like you are and I believe we could have a chance if there was a seeding system. As it is now, to my knowledge only 2 clans have won the Civ 4 CCC. RaY has come close the past 2 times but they also picked up several of the better players from the Illuminati when it disbanded. MDR and MUD have clearly proven themselves to be the top 2 clans as they pretty much alternate the cup as it is. OOD, FUN, KC, GOD etc have not performed well in any CCC to my knowledge and therefore are inferior to the other clans. Yes they all do have a few good players but as a clan they are toliet paper. You can take that however you like but it's the truth.
My whole point of a seeding system is so that no one can coast to an easy 5-8 points. If one side of the bracket is filled with the lower tier clans and one good clan that good clan will in all likelyhood coast to the final, while all the others slug it out on the other side. The Random encourages what you claim you are trying to prevent. A seeding system will at least to some degree allow the better clan to move on to the next round.
Oh wow you eliminate 2 or 3 clans after day 2 whoopty fu.ck,ing do. That is little more than trimming the fat.
I know you disagree with me LH. I just haven't seen one legitmate point why. You just simply say "Random seeding is the fairest!" With no real reason why. Your solution is that we should practice more and do other things. Well it's not as if other clans don't do that. Grim spent a good amount of time trying to set up the CCC for ..A.. but we still preformed like nuts. Well below what my expectation are. I'm am trying to do everything to help change that for the next CCC. This is one of those things.
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Post by Magzi on Aug 31, 2006 9:53:55 GMT -5
Well, as I see it the whole point of the CCC is to have a bit of FUN! So yes, some regular players will play as will some not so regular, does it really matter? If we used seeding it would.
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Post by Bantams on Aug 31, 2006 10:12:41 GMT -5
Yes [KC] havnt performed as well as expected but we as a clan had a few problems with players not being available for the last CCC
But as regards [GOD] i thought they did prety good since it was there 1st CCC and they didnt even take part in most events
regards youre other comments about clans [OOD] have disbanded i believe with a few members recreating [VVV] clan
The next CCC will be a more close contest than the last one thats for sure and yes the current system is fine rupman IMO too
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Post by longhorn on Aug 31, 2006 11:13:30 GMT -5
I know you disagree with me LH. I just haven't seen one legitmate point why. You just simply say "Random seeding is the fairest!" With no real reason why. Your solution is that we should practice more and do other things. ************* Yes we do not see eye to eye on this issue- no problem-- i am sure it won't be the first or last time . I will try one more time to explain why random seeding is the fairest. Random seeding puts all clans on an equal level. Using past performances to seed makes an inherent built in advantage to two clans. Using your example in an 8 team bracket... we can show the example as follows. Seedings: 1 MDR 2 RaY 3 MUD 4 LKT 5 OS 6 ..A.. 7 FUN 8 GOD EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN THE CCC: MDR plays GOD in 1st round RaY plays FUN in the first round MUD plays ..A.. in the first round and LKT plays OS in the first round consequences : IF your assessment of the ability of the clans are correct, you now have built in an unsurmountable advantage for MDR and RaY. MDR NEVER has to play RaY until the finals of any event. Any team, in order to win this event besides MDR or RaY, MUST beat BOTH MDR and RaY to win (every single event). So we have many clans that will NEVER have the opportunity to play one another, because the newer clan will always have to beat the same TOP clan to make it to another round. That is my argument why your suggested method is NOT fair, and why RANDOM seeding is more balanced. I don't know about you, but if I were you I sure wouldn't want to have to play MUD in the first round of every single event just so I might be able to face RaY in the quarter finals of every single event just so I might be able to play MDR in the finals of every single event (IF you would even make it out of the first round). In my opinion this would make the most boring and most unbalanced CCC ever, just to avoid a RANDOM CHANCE that MDR and RaY MIGHT POSSIBLY happen to have to play one another in the first round of a single event.
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Post by Bantams on Aug 31, 2006 12:19:46 GMT -5
what about [KC] noobhorn dont forget about us
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Post by MookieNJ on Aug 31, 2006 12:26:21 GMT -5
Longhorn --
I think Rupman's proposal is to use the final outcome of each event to determine the seeding for the next CCC. So because RaY won the Renaissance event this time around, we would receive the #1 seeding for that event. However, because we failed to score points in the 1v1, we would receive a much lower seeding for that event.
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Post by rupman on Aug 31, 2006 13:45:01 GMT -5
^ Exactly
Why would I want to stick ..A.. in the 6 spot for every 8 team event to face MUD at 3. That would be a major noob move on my part. I usually have only one of those a day and I don't think this is it.
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Post by longhorn on Aug 31, 2006 15:47:11 GMT -5
With your clarification I can now say this idea has gone from THE WORST IDEA EVER, to simply a REALLY BAD IDEA The last thing tournament directors need to do all day long is modify disputes over which clan will get 7th seeding vs which would get 8th seeding.. I mean, neither scored points. Same goes for who is 3rd seed and who is 4th seed as both teams scored 2 points. You would then need to resolve issues when a seeded clan can not field a team, you force any newer clan to play the champion in the first round of any given event, byes would not be randomly distributed, and you are rewarding someone for what they did in the past. We have a saying for that in longhorn country-- its called BULLnuts! (lol i guess the real term is a prohibited one) Additionally, winning events like ironman and/or CTON count for nothing. Events that rotate, count for nothing. 3v3 ren on inland sea might not translate to a victory in 3v3 ren ring, for example. A 3v3 modern might become a 3v3 future the next CCC, or a 2v2 ancient could wind up a 2v2 classical. CCC is not about what you did last year, last CCC or for that matter last night.. Its about the battlefield, that day, that moment. I wholeheartedly hope this terrible idea is NOT implemented! PS- getting off my soapbox again -lh
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Post by venceslas on Aug 31, 2006 16:44:25 GMT -5
Sure random has some defaults, but actually it seems the best.
Often I update the html page in order to know against which clan we play, it's a hard moment, but CCC will really less funny if you know your adversary by advance. Ok sometime it's unfair to play the best team the first turn, but "the best team" is much more abstract that he seems, and also like explained by Ellestar in some cases MDR vs MUD can be funny for everyone. The winner will happy that his direct challenger get no point, and other clans are happy to play again the so-called weaker clan.
Sometime you are lucky, and sometime you are unlucky, so in the final there is no reason than clan like A be penalised by random draw. If you add the positive and the negative, in my opinion random draw is better.
Moreover CCC is much more balanced than before, in every event, I think 4,5 clans can win.
chris.
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