icbm
Settler
Posts: 60
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Post by icbm on Aug 24, 2006 12:54:50 GMT -5
After at least 30 hotseat starts at standard wheel featuring 9 players, I've come to the conculsion that in order for ironman event to prove anything, you need to use a prebuilt map.
Results of my testing were, well appalling. Other ppl had gems, gold, iron and horse in cap while one or more got DESERT RIVERS. And the pattern continued to every game I tested. Out of 30 maybe 2 were only slightly unfair. Now ppl come here and say "that's civ" but it really doesn't have to be. I haven't tested the C4F wheel but at least the standard wheel is completely unplayable, period. Do something about it, please.
EDIT: I tested the C4F Wheel, it is so much better it's not even funny, I only made a couple test runs but none of the players had a bad start. Use the C4F wheel please.
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Post by swissy on Aug 24, 2006 17:14:20 GMT -5
I find the start area spacing to be more of a joke than resource allocation. Last Ironman I got one of the "problematic" start areas at either 3 or 9 on the clock. That gave me one opponent starting a mere 8 sqares away, which in and of itself isn't bad. I made the most of it sending multiple warriors in his direction to seal the ithmus and cause general havoc, only to be rusdhed by 4 chariots. It seems he had capitol horse on a river, unfortunately my copper required a second city. I never found out if I had capitol iron. Meanwhile the eventual winner had one of the "cherished" start areas at 12 or 6 on the clock, you know the one that has 14-18 sqs to either neighbor.
My major dislike of the flat circular maps is the distribution of start areas and how some civs are thrown into immediate war, while others can put up a couple cities before having to ramp up for war.
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icbm
Settler
Posts: 60
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Post by icbm on Aug 24, 2006 17:23:17 GMT -5
Well, Mookie just har 27 desert tiles in his wheel area in a practice game we just played. That's pretty harsh.
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Post by MookieNJ on Aug 25, 2006 3:25:46 GMT -5
27 desert tiles, 3 lake tiles, 2 grassland river tiles, 1 plains river tile, and 1 grassland hill river tile. So basically no fresh water available and lots of desert. What's the point of the game being played under conditions such as this? Especially a game that's probably going to take all day to play. If this were the CCC game I would have been pretty much out of contention from turn 1 by being so screwed by the map generator. Where's the sport in that?
In just about every Ring, Hub, and Wheel game I've played at least half of the player spaces are dominated by lakes rather than rivers as sources of fresh water. This is so unbalanced that's a complete joke. The river tiles are extremely valuable as they allow for flexible city planting along fresh water, quick commerce boost with cottages, or watermill for production boost. Lakes are only nice if they are close enough to the coast that you can turn them into a 3 food tile with a Lightouse. In this particular game I had 3 Lake tiles and only 1 close enough to the coast to use with this benefit.
As much as everyone hates Inland Sea for being so overplayed, there's a reason for this. Even if you don't get a river in your capital, the land is usually relatively fair and there's usually plenty of rivers all over the map for future cities.
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Post by tommynt on Aug 25, 2006 4:02:02 GMT -5
I agree a bit that desert tile distribution is unfair by times on these maps, but i won 2 times with 0 river and kind a lot of desert tiles (even when not 27). If your hub is that bad conquer another ...
A prebuilt map is nuts lot of work, also is good and bad land just part of civ, i said it by times and do it again - if allways best player d win, my and other players win% d be a lot higher - it s a bit like playing poker - not allways does the best hand win but in long run best player ll dominate
1 idea i got is changing climate, maybe this wet climite (or however is called) d be better as jungle is MUCH better as desert
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icbm
Settler
Posts: 60
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Post by icbm on Aug 25, 2006 8:41:13 GMT -5
I agree tommynt about your post but remember this is wheel. If you have very crappy land and go conquer another there's a high chance two other people who have immediate access will just attack you and if they had great land you'll have pretty bad ass units to deal with and won't be able to surivive.
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Post by SirPartyMan on Aug 25, 2006 10:15:09 GMT -5
The last Ironman was played as Ring. Wheel is not very different, except you now have an additional road into/and out of your land leading to center.
As to using Galleons, with normal sea level I've found this map conducive to boat attacks.
As to unequal starts regarding horses in cap vs. desert, that's CIV.
Starts are supposed to be relatively equidistant - but there is no guarantee of equal resources on inland sea or any other map.
"Prebuilt" maps introduce the risk of cheating/pre-studying the map. Random maps, while potentially unbalanced, are at least fair to all - everyone has an equal chance. And isn't CIV also about overcoming adversity? In my experience, if the land you start on is crappy, there is really good land somewhere within 10 tiles. Go claim it.
Anyway, with one day to go, it would be too disruptive to change the map setting. People have obviously been practicing with the Wheel/standard size/normal sea level map.
Next time, I would be happy to hear suggestions for an alternative map - and we can even run a poll on "what's the best map for Ironman?"
Best, SPM
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Post by eiffel on Aug 25, 2006 10:49:07 GMT -5
The point was complete crap lands, in wheel, you really can have a spot with almost only desert, jungle and no river few hills while others get rivers, gold, flood plains and hills... i hope it won't be like this this time, i'm so used to getting such poor starts
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Post by Canucksoldier on Aug 25, 2006 13:58:19 GMT -5
I don't see a problem with using the C4F version of this map, it's not a prebuilt map, with the problems that that entails, and it will solve the crapy land issues. And I'm the TD for that event.
CS
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Post by SirPartyMan on Aug 25, 2006 14:16:53 GMT -5
OK, CS, you can do that then if you wish. No problem on my end.
SPM
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Post by eiffel on Aug 25, 2006 15:12:51 GMT -5
If C4F_Wheel is used under Civ4, due to 1.61 bug, remember all players MUST have the .py map in their PublicMaps folder BEFORE starting civ4 vanilla (no problem if players has the program Civ4fans). Map can be downloaded here : www.civ4fans.com/C4F_Wheel.py
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Post by Canucksoldier on Aug 25, 2006 15:53:44 GMT -5
I'll ensure that all ironman players have C4F installed with the maps, that will solve this issue in advance.
CS
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Arvcran
Worker
Tourney Director
Remember the purpose of CIV / BtS is enjoyment, entertainment, and hobby!
Posts: 181
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Post by Arvcran on Oct 3, 2006 20:10:16 GMT -5
Curious does team battle ground allow 1 player team teams and does it support balanced resources and do they work?
What about hub?
I know it was not an Ironman event but last CCC my team had 1 horse no iron no copper for the 3 players on tbg while the other team had 3 copper and 2 horses - how can that be a fair?
Proper maps should be a high priority IMO - good to see the discussion about it ;-).
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Post by ironclad on Oct 4, 2006 14:53:08 GMT -5
Solution: Fractal
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