|
Post by deyreepher on Jul 15, 2006 5:12:10 GMT -5
In my opinion, this map is unbalanced. There is a one shot strategy for this map that was used against us in the RaY vs. ..A.. match-up. What this entails is, planting your capital as a coastal, going into Bureacracy & Serfdom then chopping a Galleon. You then load up all your initial Riflemen into that Galleon and then the whole team goes to 1 point on the map.
Within 7 turns the enemy will find somebody as its not difficult due to Galleons having 4 movement. Now with each player being pidgeon-holed on one island there is no possibility of receiving assistance from any teammates. Now, in the worst case scenario the enemy will find one of your team within 10 turns, in which case it is impossible to defend against a rush of 9 Riflemen. You can run the numbers on the possibilities of defending against such a tactic. If you plant all 3 cities, you're bait. If you plant only 1 city and merely chop defensive units, utilize slavery/nationhood, you will have a max of six units, seven tops. Unless you get really lucky with a few dice rolls, you simply cannot eliminate those nine units. That 1 player on your team is effectively choked or dead.
The only other possibility is to be able to either sink one of the Galleons carrying the three Riflemen in a 50/50 battle with a Galleon. Frigates are an option but are resource dependent at which point, unless you're India they'll already be halfway there with their Riflemen rush. Aside from both teams rushing at the same time, 1 player is just SOL.
Now I understand that rushing is part of any game like this, but to be denied assistance from ALL of your teammates due to the map constraints, means to me, that perhaps the map should be re-considered.
Now if Russia is banned from Renaissance games due to strategy being pigeon-holed, I believe that the Islands map should be banned from Industrial. I suggest play testing on this map for at least 10 games and you'll see that this strategy is over-powered.
|
|
|
Post by Canucksoldier on Jul 15, 2006 14:21:40 GMT -5
Yes ..A.. used that against KC as well, we actually thought of that as well and were doing the same thing...but they found our 3rd player brfore we found there's , it was a crap shoot that we lost. I'd be in favour of changing this map for ind teamers, any time there is only one right answer it is no longer a strategy game. But then there are other popular games that have only one common research path as well. Unfortunately it would be hard to balance all the maps and era starts and at the same time have a balanced epic game. I guess it's just up to us MPers to decide what we are willing to put up with for balance and what we are not.
CS
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Jul 15, 2006 16:26:19 GMT -5
I completely hear what your saying dey, infact i made a post like this months ago. Its this starting with such powerful units thats the problem, every era has the same choking stratagy.
I have said time after time it's totally crazy giving people "half an empire" as soon as they settle, ie 3 loaded cites with the most powerful unit of the time. Someone at apolyton was saying MP CIV4 sucks because its just choke choke choke and rush rush rush, and a part of me agrees. Dont get me wrong choking and rushing is a skill and should definatly be a big part of the game, but not as it is currently IMO.
What the makers of CIV have done is tried to replicate an empire that somsone would have by the industrial age if they played an epic, almost like and epic but the intial stage being bypassed. This is totally wrong IMO. So what we are left with in the same old boring maps which we HAVE to play for a nice, unexploitable game, which i rather sad.
Why are 90% of ladder games on Inland-sea? not because ladder people are boring but because of the nature of the game, people find you dont get over choked/rushed, and you are ensured enough time to get a resource if you dont have one.
Just my 2 cents
|
|
|
Post by charliebrownparker on Jul 15, 2006 16:37:00 GMT -5
You're right
|
|
|
Post by SirPartyMan on Jul 15, 2006 18:10:36 GMT -5
I agree that we need to re-evaluate this event's rule set and we will come up with a good answer before the next one.
SPM
|
|
|
Post by notagoodname on Jul 15, 2006 19:40:19 GMT -5
Well you can't blame ..A.. for playing the map in a way that almost guarantees a win. We never created the rules or even suggested them, we just played by them Best way to defend against it - all go universal sufferage and set gold to 0%. Only build 1 coastal city and buy 2 grenadiers there ASAP. As soon as 1 of your team sees the enemy get the other members to give that player all your gold. That player can now buy grenadiers in all his cities every turn. You should only lose 1 city at the start this way - the first city to spot the enemy - which you can take back once you have bought enough grenadiers. PS. Sorry about Bluerog calling everyone newbs, we will keep him on a shorter leash from now on.
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Jul 15, 2006 19:44:46 GMT -5
As soon as 1 of your team sees the enemy get the other members to give that player all your gold. That player can now buy grenadiers in all his cities every turn. You should only lose 1 city at the start this way - the first city to spot the enemy - which you can take back once you have bought enough grenadiers. Only problem with this strategy is that you're digging yourself a tech hole. Along with this, you are forced to play with the same tactic -- launch all 9 Rifles at the same general location and force the other team to die or go 0 tech as well. Not a very fun tactic overall, imo ... In the end, nothing wrong with the way it was done in the CCC because the rules were followed and exploited the way they should be. I just think we really need a new map next time around. That crap was uncalled for, it was a lot harsher than calling people newbs, and he's not welcome in any game I host in the future.
|
|
|
Post by deyreepher on Jul 15, 2006 19:47:37 GMT -5
Not blaming anyone NotAGoodName....that was some good analyzing of possible strategies on your part. It's just after looking into your strategy further and trying to come up with a counter, there just is no counter, at least not on that map.
|
|
|
Post by Ellestar on Jul 16, 2006 5:32:11 GMT -5
It's very easy to mod a number of starting units to 0.
civ4\Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4EraInfos.xml
<iStartingDefenseUnits>3</iStartingDefenseUnits> - number of combat units <iStartingUnitMultiplier>3</iStartingUnitMultiplier> - number of settlers etc.
|
|
|
Post by venceslas on Jul 16, 2006 5:36:34 GMT -5
That's quite a good idea chris.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on Jul 16, 2006 6:08:36 GMT -5
complaints are bs imo - every1 knows what other team ll try so u shouolda play according to it - with choping and buying gren early u can easily defend the rush - just cause u were not able to cope with a stratregy from opponent u should not blame settings
imo these are very good settings with lot of action all game and people wanted have 1 event with sea fights involved - indu island is far best map for seafights imo
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jul 16, 2006 6:36:07 GMT -5
Does anyone not go all gold at the start in industrial? Either you use it to buy units for a rush/defend a rush, or you use it to buy workers and settlers.
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on Jul 16, 2006 14:40:59 GMT -5
hm elledge teching is usally kinda important aswell in indu as infantry badly kick gren and rifles - so on another map as islands u usually dont go all gold 1.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jul 16, 2006 15:40:58 GMT -5
When I've played industrial I find that the mercantilism/representation combo is strong enough that it pays to spam out my cities with goldrushed settlers very quickly and then switch over; I wouldn't be surprised if that techs to Assembly Line almost as fast.
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Jul 16, 2006 18:17:17 GMT -5
When I've played industrial I find that the mercantilism/representation combo is strong enough that it pays to spam out my cities with goldrushed settlers very quickly and then switch over; I wouldn't be surprised if that techs to Assembly Line almost as fast. Uhhh, you can't goldrush anything if you're in Representation instead of Universal Suffrage.
|
|
|
Post by lporiginalg on Jul 16, 2006 19:25:43 GMT -5
That player can now buy grenadiers in all his cities every turn. You should only lose 1 city at the start this way - the first city to spot the enemy - which you can take back once you have bought enough grenadiers. grens dont get bonus defending so why not build rifles?
|
|
Slaughter
Settler
God save the screen!
Posts: 48
|
Post by Slaughter on Jul 16, 2006 20:37:36 GMT -5
That player can now buy grenadiers in all his cities every turn. You should only lose 1 city at the start this way - the first city to spot the enemy - which you can take back once you have bought enough grenadiers. grens dont get bonus defending so why not build rifles? correct me if i'm wrong, but this thread is about the early boat drop with the three starting rifles, so you'll "only" face 9 rifles if they coming for you. assuming you went for the same strategy, you won't have any rifles at home anymore, so you need to build new units to defend. and grenadiers get a 50% bonus vs the arriving rifles, that's like 18 vs 14 strength - quite better then the 14 vs 14 (not factoring agg civs) and even cost 10 hammers less . and what you mean by grens don't get bonus defending? there's no special defending bonus for rifles either, just the fortify and culture bonus, but from that will both units benefit - and you get the chance to kill them if they don't attack and go for pillage w/o taking the risk of a 50:50 situation (ok, if they stay in forest it might be hard even with grens, but we're talking about a landing for a kill, not for sitting in someone's woods ;D). so i think getting grens is the best way to defend an early landing with rifles, not getting rifles yourself - though you may need other units soon after as they might come again to finish you with cavs or something. and about the topic itself ... for sure this isn't the funniest tactic, but i think in such a case it's not about a stylish gameplay, but about to get the upper hand by using the chance to kill one opponent early. if you don't like it, just get your defense up and build only one coastal maybe, or do some other crap, but don't blame the other team if they try to go for that early kill - in most cases it's a valuable tactic (we died to that in ccc aswell, although we were a bit unlucky too ). i don't like indu that much at all, but imho it's the best era for naval battles on islands map, so if there are enough player who like sea fights, it's a good event for ccc.
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Jul 16, 2006 22:35:20 GMT -5
I like the rushing and the naval battles. I just don't like that there's one "right" strategy to follow at the start of the game. If you don't follow it, you will lose.
|
|
|
Post by Elledge on Jul 16, 2006 22:49:50 GMT -5
When I've played industrial I find that the mercantilism/representation combo is strong enough that it pays to spam out my cities with goldrushed settlers very quickly and then switch over; I wouldn't be surprised if that techs to Assembly Line almost as fast. Uhhh, you can't goldrush anything if you're in Representation instead of Universal Suffrage. I mean that it pays to spam out my cities with goldrushed settlers very quickly and then switch over to Representation and raise the tech rate back up.
|
|
|
Post by eiffel on Jul 17, 2006 8:32:17 GMT -5
Maybe 1 continent per team would still allow fun ship action ?
|
|