|
Post by zzZhenon on Nov 23, 2005 11:14:53 GMT -5
IMHO, the Organized traits is practically useless. I don't understand having two money traits. Financial trait not only gives you more cash, it also increases your teching... that's like 2 traits in one.
Anywho... i think the new traits in CIV are cool, but they're brand spanking new and may need balancing. If anyone has found Organized useful, please post here... I'd love to learn how. I noticed that often this game requires a fresh look at certain aspects that I originally found lacking.
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 23, 2005 11:24:28 GMT -5
I voted "not sure/maybe." I could go either way with this one. A lot of people are in favor of Financial, but it's worth pointing out that this trait is only TRULY potent if you have lots of tiles that are producing 2 gold or more. Can you make that happen? Sure! Absolutely! You do, though, have to genuinely work at making sure that happens. The cheap building - banks - aren't exactly bad, but they're not mandatory, either...particularly if you're running high research. Organized, on the other hand, is a lot more "fire and forget." It works without you knowing about it - and that may be part of the problem; you really have a hard time gauging what it does. If you'll notice, though, a civ with Hereditary Rule, Vassallage and Organized Religion running is going to take a FRIGGIN LOT less of a gold hit when it plants a new city - or a city grows quickly - than other civs. The problem is, you can't really notice this unless you're paying mad attention - which we don't, typically. The Organized builds are pretty darn useful, and a Courthouse is almost never a bad idea as the game matures and your cities get larger and further away. I think the biggest problem with the Organized trait is that it really is almost impossible to tell in MP precisely how much benefit you're getting from it. It's a very "under the hood" civic. Financial is the "lean on it and it will go" civic that is easily spotted. Organized is quiet and unassuming. I do know one thing, though - I played a teamer with two other guys recently, and both of them were pretty sharp and had well-developed empires like mine. I was third in GNP, and going nuts because I couldn't figure out why - I could count tiles and SEE that I had just as much commerce coming in as they did. Then it hit me...they were both Organized. Is it perfectly balanced? Probably not. Does it need a tweak, though? I really, genuinely don't know.
|
|
|
Post by zzZhenon on Nov 23, 2005 11:32:02 GMT -5
Is it safe to say that Organized is more noticeable the larger your civ is?
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 23, 2005 11:37:13 GMT -5
Safe? Meh.
To truly see exactly the benefit of the civic, you need to have precisely the same empire with it and without it. That's Worldbuilder stuff.
I'm not sure I would notice, even with a vast empire, because I don't tend to run the high cost civics as much as some people. You can be sure, though, that an empire with, say, 12 cities at size 15, running Police State, Vassallage, Caste System, Mercantilism, Theocracy (arguably one of the stronger warmonger combinations) is going to be saving a whole mad crazy heapload of cash. I've heard people who play at Realms Beyond (a SP site) say it's saved them 200+ gold per turn in some of their matured maps. That very likely DOES beat Financial - since having 200+ tiles all getting 2 or more commerce per turn is a pretty significant quantity.
How does that translate to MP? Like I said - I'm really not sure. It's something I ought to sit down and test when I get time... although I know Heroic is better at this sort of thing than I am.
|
|
Mo_D
Settler
Posts: 45
|
Post by Mo_D on Nov 23, 2005 12:02:57 GMT -5
From what I've seen, Fried is dead-on (shocking, I know ). Organized is not as terrible as people think it is, but yes, it could probably use a small nudge forward in terms of strength. Maybe another 1 or 2 half-cost buildings? Something small is all it needs to be on par with everything else. Financial is a high-risk, high-reward trait - kinda like Agricultural was in C3C. If you start with the right type of land, it can be huge. With the wrong land, though... Organized is probably the "safe" way to go, as it will give you consistent benefits over a wide variety of game situations.
|
|
|
Post by Vermillion on Nov 23, 2005 12:24:43 GMT -5
To be honest personally, I steer away from organized, but maybe because of the fact that (as stated above) it is sort of a "silent" trait. However, cheap courthouses are sweet!! It seems to me like a later era trait, but then again... I never really pay attention to it. It would be interesting to test it in the worldbuilder.
|
|
|
Post by skidbladnir on Nov 23, 2005 13:23:39 GMT -5
to keep up the poetic explanations : can we say that Organized is a shy trait, when Financial is all for showing off ?
better, can we say Organized is the lame duck turning into a swan ?
|
|
|
Post by tommynt on Nov 24, 2005 6:51:07 GMT -5
isnt the real problem that no1 (looks like not even frie, and he made it didnt he?) understand the balance sheet with unit and buiding and city uphold cost. sometimes 1 city more hit u mad someimes it is even good sometimes i have just 10 cities and am fine sometimes i cant afford 4. (Pls no answers like more units increase uphold costs) I dont agrre with financial being a pray for trait or so - as every1 is building cottages it ll pay off after some time anyway. so proly the question is what does organized do and not is it good or not - u cant rate something u dot know what it does ( some people do such thing) anyway - i doubt that there s any way to compare it to the power of agri espacially in teamers anyway - by far the weakest is philo for sure - i d even prefer not trait to it - these philo leaders suck ( i once got 1 when haviong only forge worker and no wonder -was really pissed) and compare it to indu - u get wonders half price there and therefore u can build 2 wonders in time of one - lamo u catch up easily with the philo rate with having double wonders - and forges in every city dont suck for sure modify: voted for Lastride as my dad - might be fun
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 24, 2005 11:16:48 GMT -5
Industrial does not give half price wonders. It gives 2/3rds price wonders.
50% faster = 150% of normal speed.
Half-price wonders would require 200% of normal speed.
|
|
|
Post by Sidhe on Nov 24, 2005 14:44:58 GMT -5
Why not save the dude and then go for a golden age? Golden ages sparked at the right time can give you a great military/scoring edge so it's not that useless. Mind you what do I know, I hardly ever play spiritual civs. I wonder how many more times someones gonna make the mistake of thinking 50% is actually 200% and then have to be corrected by the admins
|
|
|
Post by zzZhenon on Nov 24, 2005 22:09:37 GMT -5
The financial trait is particularly useful/strong on those archipelago maps that Fried is so fond of
|
|
reptile
Worker
in desperate need of a new avatar
Posts: 106
|
Post by reptile on Nov 24, 2005 22:17:48 GMT -5
With the financial trait I usually build my cottages at rivers and get 3 coins from the very beginning - excellent for a quick tech boost in a mp game.
Btw, for me, the traits help me to "deconstruct" psychological barriers...i.e. I hardly built forges because they seem to be so expensive without the industrial trait. The financial trait makes me use the cottages, whereas they look pretty useless if they´d only yield 1 coin. Or the philosophical trait makes me go for GP more than I´d do in a normal game. Maybe Organized is considered weak because its effects arent that obvious. (Still, I think its a bit weak - I voted maybe.)
|
|
|
Post by yilar on Nov 25, 2005 11:41:38 GMT -5
I feel the phi trait is weaker, but thats just me... Those universities never come in handy in the 120-150t games...
|
|
Lord_Phan
Settler
Member of the Nation of Domination
Posts: 52
|
Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 25, 2005 12:55:55 GMT -5
Industrial does not give half price wonders. It gives 2/3rds price wonders. 50% faster = 150% of normal speed. Half-price wonders would require 200% of normal speed. Gonna correct your math. You are correct it gives 150% of normal speed. Total Shield mutiplied by 1.5 But 2/3 = 66% far more then 50% If you had say Industrial Trait and Stone and were working on Stonehenge your total shields would be multiplied by 100% or 2 Doubling the speed at which it would normally take. Lets say you have 8 shields a turn. Stonehenge costs 120. that's 15 turns. With Industrial you get 8*1.5 = 12 Shields per turn. You now have the wonder in 10 turns. 1 third difference. If you also have stone. It becomes 8*2 = 16 Shields per turn Which becomes 7 1/2 rounded up is 8 turns. A saving of only 2 turns from the previous 50% bonus. With both of those you've reduced the cost by 47% only because you still have shields left over which will take another turn. This would be more effective for larger wonders however. with those 8 shields the costs of Pyramids in terms of turns to complete are 100% = 57 150% = 38 200% = 29 Make your own conclusions and strategy.
|
|
Lord_Phan
Settler
Member of the Nation of Domination
Posts: 52
|
Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 25, 2005 13:08:40 GMT -5
With Industrial + Stone + Forge it's possible to get 125% bonus.
Although consider the fact a Forge costs as much as Stonehenge itself.
|
|
|
Post by donaldkipper on Nov 25, 2005 15:12:35 GMT -5
i thought stone and marble 'doubled' speed, not added 50%
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 25, 2005 17:28:21 GMT -5
They do.
Industrial - 50% bonus.
Stone/Marble - 100% bonus.
Forge - 25% bonus to all production.
So technically, 175% bonus.
|
|
icbm
Settler
Posts: 60
|
Post by icbm on Nov 26, 2005 5:31:23 GMT -5
I feel the phi trait is weaker, but thats just me... Those universities never come in handy in the 120-150t games... Wrong. They never come handy in ancient starts which is about 1/10th of the game. I always get blood pumping through my veins when I see something like that mentioned Feels so bad that ppl actually base their opinions of the players and the game on ancient starts which is, arguably, the most boring and the least demanding start... It is hard only because ppl have memorized it so well. The only bad side of ladder I've come up with so far is that when ppl haven't had the time to practise different eras they don't play them because it might hurt their winning streak
|
|
|
Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 26, 2005 6:55:59 GMT -5
Hoooooboy. Getting ICBM to start posting is going to have some interesting effects.
::takes cover behind something solid::
|
|
Lord_Phan
Settler
Member of the Nation of Domination
Posts: 52
|
Post by Lord_Phan on Nov 26, 2005 13:52:52 GMT -5
Ya Sorry, was doing that off the top of my head right before leaving for work.
Kept thinking 50% for some reason.
I'll do the new numbers then.
I'll use pyramids as an example again. with 8 shield base.
450 Shield cost.
With nothing = 57 Turns With Industrial = 38 With Stone alone = 29 With Industrial plus stone = 23 With Industrial plus Stone + Forge = 21
Of course building a forge is 120 sheilds = 15 turns with 8 shield base. So it's no use in creating the wonder faster. Forge is best on increasing armies and settlers/workers.
|
|