Post by mrgametheory on Oct 31, 2007 15:45:01 GMT -5
I think this is a great idea.
You should contact Geforced and we should combine all ideas and set up 2 new ladders, one based on BTS which is more geared towards playing against an AI / other people who like to test the skills they learned in Single player vs other people in the world and another ladder based on the balanced MP mod we are making.
When people first start playing Civ 4 they will be able to log into GameSpy and get adjusted to the game. They can be a part of your guys ladder where they will grow into ok players who understand the general concepts of the game and how to micro-manage. The players who arn't competitive and don't mind the original version with its strategic loopholes will stay in your ladder.
The players who prefer a more competitive version of the game that is balanced with minimum - no strategic loopholes will transfer over to our ladder. Those competitive players will be able to partake in serious competition with cash prizes and not have to worry about random newbs or flaws in the strategic depth of the game ruining their gaming experience.
This project is on it's way for quite some time now. We are building a whole new league system from scratch, so there will be really alot of changes compared to the actual ladder at cases. I will help DTA here and post some details on the major changes, which will be as follows:
League ranking will be based on skill and not, like at cases, on a different fictional 'rank'. That means that the player with the highest skill value has automatically rank #1, 2nd best skill rank #2 and so on. Therefor players will not jump half the distance to their (higher ranked) opponent anymore, but only gain skill for a match and then indirectly gain ranks. No more sky jumps by players ranked 500. winning a 5v5 teamer against high ranked players climbing into top 20 immediately.
Another side effect will be that the rankings will be more 'stable', ranks are not shuffled around that much by only a couple of games that lead to high rank jumps anymore.
Duels, Teamers, CTONs, Epics will be counted all the same, every match is only counted as ONE GAME. No more 6 reports from a 6v6 teamer, just one report for the whole game. That will make it more transparent to compare players who have different favorite gamestyles.
CTON games will be treated differently in skill gain/loss than just by the final standings. Players with a low skill value can even gain skill from a CTON match if they don't reach 1st place, the other way round high skilled players may even lose skill for a 2nd place if all other players have a low skill value.
Skill gain in team games will be based on your teammates' skills too and not only on your own skill. It's more hard to gain skill with stacked top players on one team and you'll gain more skill if you beat a overall 'good' skilled team with mostly 'bad' skilled teammates on your own team. Of course it also works in the opposite direction, if you lose with your team against a team of all lower skilled players, you (and all your teammates) will lose significantly more skill than you would by losing vs a nearly equal or better skilled team.
Players stats will show your achievements for every different gamestyle, showing your skills in the different disciplines and your overall performance. (Some specific stats may only be visible to gold members, it's not decided yet if there will be a gold membership program at all.)
Integrated support for clan games and tourneys, so every clan match will be counted towards your clan's statistics even if it was not played as part of CCC or COT. Multi-tournament events like the CCC will be fully embedded into the league and will come with a own overall standings page and support for clan (and even clan members) check and signup.
New native support for CTON and multi-DYP style tournaments.
A bunch of new admin tools to manage everything, e.g. easier identification of duplicate accounts, keeping track of rules' violation by players and advanced logging just to mention a few.
These are just some major changes on how the new league system is working, there will be alot of minor changes to make the league a whole new experience.
If you have any questions or suggestions, feel free to post them here or ask any admin (or me).
Last Edit: Oct 31, 2007 17:50:46 GMT -5 by Slaughter
those two reporting options are just there for testing, this must not be the final report page. it's not decided yet how the reporting will work, 3 possible solutions are left to discuss which are
- winner reports (with at least one confirmation of the losing team - maybe together with a decline report option for wrong reports and a max period before the report is counted automatically) - loser reports (maybe the team captain who has to be voted before game starts - not really the favorite option coz of all those non-reports) - host reports (this would be easy to handle coz the responsibility of reporting only belongs to one person - if ppl like to decide on game settings and who they invite, they should also be held responsible for reporting)
a full explanation of how the report process is working will come with the beta phase.
edit: maybe even all three methods will be implemented and headadmin can switch between them so if one method doesn't work out well the league can be switched over to another way of reporting.
Last Edit: Nov 1, 2007 9:56:38 GMT -5 by Slaughter
I still think the current report loss system is the best way to go about things!
heres my reason why
1:It looks a bit too complicated for some ppl to understand the new system
2:some people get killed in a game and then report a win which will mean we always require to get a screenshot in all games at last turn makes no sence
3:we will be spending more time reporting than playing CIV if we individual have to report losses and wins etc
reporting Ctons and teamers seperate and duels seperate is a good idea as is reporting in the right name order 1st , 2nd 3rd ect
but if youre say 2nd in a 7 man game you report 1 loss and 5 wins right?
seems like its going to be too much for some people id prefer to just report the one loss and then let the other 5 report there losses in order of 1 2 3 etc
You got it wrong, bantams, ONLY 1 REPORT is needed for the whole game, all other 'reports' will be calculated based on the standings from this one report. And you only get 1 win or loss, whatever your skill or better your skill gain/loss is from that game. I will post some examples later to show how it works.
Post by Earl Harewood on Nov 1, 2007 11:51:01 GMT -5
This is it guys, the future of the ladder will be decided by how well we can implement a reporting system. The importance of this discussion needs to be absolutely clear to all who see this.
What we need is a registration and reporting system that is AS easy but preferably EASIER to use than cases reporting system. We need to make sure that policy is crystal clear, rock solid and unchanging.
I strongly advise against switching between reporting systems, I understand there will be a teething period of some sorts but we need to minimise the disruption caused by this simply because the PLAYERS need to take to it. If our system is in any way confusing or can in any way be abused people simply will not want to play ladder games. Our website needs to really sell our vision of ranked players of the world scrambling for first place safe in the knowledge that it is in fair competition. We need to have the best players out there as ambassadors playing often and showing other players that the ladder really is the way to go by inviting them into their matches and playing other populat game types.
Here is my suggestion for a rock solid reporting system that will not fail us.
There will be a SINGLE link for reporting all matches with a single form that can cater for all game types. One person reports the match but the others involved will need to verify the results. The first person from the game that goes to the website to report the match will need to login to gain access to the report match form.
The form consists of the following: >>Game Name<< The same name as the game showed in the lobby so that others will be able see clearly. >>Format<< Free For All/Duel or Teamer (further drop down section depending on what was selected) For FFA/Duel you need to fill out 2 things, "how many participated?" then "Who I beat and/or who beat me". For Teamer you need to select from a drop down menu how many teams participated and then fill out lists of each team's players and what position they finished the game in. >>Screenshots<< The last section of the Form is a little box for uploading screenshots of the match (a maximum of two screenshots, beginning and end of the match, in jpg format only which are deleted once the report is complete is my suggestion)
Before the report is filed there needs to be a check which checks the ladder for the players names and if they all exist the match will then be posted to the "GameBoard" or whatever you wish to call it. Also once a game has been posted the author of the post can delete the posting but will have to select a reason why it is being deleted. e.g. duplicate / incorrect report with an email being sent to the players involved stating that it has been deleted. (There should be advanced options about email notification which i will explain later)
Once a game is posted to the GameBoard all other players who participated will then be sent emails/icq/yim informing them of their need to verify the match before the results of it can affect the ladder. A link should take them directly to the match posting on the gameboard. Screenshots that were posted will be available for viewing. For a team game or duel only a simple "Is this the correct result of this match?" box needs to be ticked. For a FFA further further information about "who beat me" and "who did i beat" needs to be filled in. Then a link "Dispute this match" for players to dispute the match for any reason, ladder rules or imposter etc This will then be forwarded to admins for a decision to be made based on evidence/testimonies from both sides of the argument.
Once a game has been verified by all players the ladder will be updated with the results and the posting can either be archived or deleted.
If somebody doesn't verify the match within 24 hours of the posting then unreported match procedures similar to the ones we have now will take place where the ones who haven't verified the results will be contacted for an explanation and then the reports forced if there is no reply again within another amount of time. (Sorry admins couldn't get rid of your non-report duties ;D )
The gameboard should be an implicit noticeboard page viewable only by registered players who are logged in and only showing matches which they have played in.
Players will be able to edit their email notification options with the following settings: "Inform me when a match has been posted" "Inform me when a match posting has been deleted" They will however not be able to disable non-report or dispute match proceedings emails.
Sorry for the long post I hope you all agree that this is the best way to proceed with a reporting system.
Well, if were taking ideas still, heres two cents.
When reporting names, A drop down box of all the registered ladder people. As you type in the letters of the name, the field chooses the closest matched name so you can get the correct spelling off the first three letters or at least have a variety of names to choose from to help facilitate the process. This should make it easier.
Before the game starts, register your name in the game the host started on the website and after the game, mark your result, similar to a tourney setting. Easy to do, easy to use. Its the winners option to post a screen shot.
Host makes a registered game on the website before the game starts including the name of the game, (This is where he can choose if its a teamer or not as well any other options or settings that may be) its the players responsibility to register with that game before the game starts or his stats aren't recorded. Its the hosts responsibility to make sure all players are registered before he hits the launch button.
Marking your result after the game should be as easy as stipulating in a java style button, what place you came in, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 etc. Not hard to count how many are ahead of you before you quit the game. In a teamer, a simple win or lose should suffice unless its a three vs three vs three for example, then your team would put third place as an example.
""There will be a SINGLE link for reporting all matches with a single form that can cater for all game types. One person reports the match but the others involved will need to verify the results. The first person from the game that goes to the website to report the match will need to login to gain access to the report match form.""
The only problem I see with this Earl is if your first out in a Cton style game and the person who reports wins, how long do you have to wait to verify your game? I suppose you could have an inbox when you log in that would automatically message you saying something like, "You have unverified matches waiting" Then provide a link to the match waiting to be verified with the option to challenge. That could work as well if it were possible. Also, for this to work you would assume that the player who played, plays everyday or he logs onto the ladder site in a 24 hour period.
Post by Earl Harewood on Nov 1, 2007 12:19:58 GMT -5
MGT, I think your idea of a separate ladder is an atrocious one. This is Civ4Players, One game, One ladder, One community. Your idea will splinter the civ4 community. I see you have already made your own website called CivAddicts right? This suggestion could be interpretted as a blatant "power grab" for your new site using your new mod as the reason why everyone should just join your league. I understand your frustrations with the game with strategic loopholes and what-not but I for one do not like the idea of Civ4Players being belittled as players who play an "uncompetitive" version of civ, whilst the Unofficial CivAddicts League plays "competitive civ" At the end of the day, your mod is what it is, A MOD and it should be counted on the ladder just like people can still play warlords or vanilla or any other mod and report to this ladder.
One Ladder for the entire of civ4 period is the way to go in my opinion.
Loyalty Be known for unwavering commitment to the people and ideals you choose to live by. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them.