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Post by metallian on Oct 16, 2007 15:47:26 GMT -5
From what I've seen this new addition only hinders MP gameplay. Firaxus put this in without properly testing it, now catapults/trebs are completely worthless. There is no reason why my cats should be killed by horse archers when I am escorting them with Ballista Ellephants. The flanking attacks only get worse as eras get later. In Ren/Medi Knights completely wreck stacks of cats before they even get to a city. I know Zhenon posted something on this a few weeks ago but we need to address this issue, whether it is through a patch or a making a MOD. Without Cats and Trebs it's virtually impossible to get city from your opponents after 50 turns of gameplay. 2 Moving units are already overpowered no need to make them even better.
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Post by TheBadSeed on Oct 16, 2007 18:41:18 GMT -5
Completely, totally, and wholeheartedly agree. Aside from defense inside a city, cats are worthless now. Amazing that a stack of 20 cats, escorted by 30 other units can be totally devastated by 5 cats and 5 horsearchers. All you have to do it cat the stack, then send in HA's, if the cats arent completely destroyed, they will be so weakened that they will be useless for city attacking. Now you have your 30 units that are completely useless for city attacking without the benefit of catapults. Cat's managed to go from the single most overpowered unit in the game in warlords to completely useless with this latest patch.
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Post by zzZhenon on Oct 16, 2007 19:30:44 GMT -5
The good thing about Flanking is that HAs got the much-needed love that they've been missing. The bad is that it's very difficult to play a later era game or to play a long game into the later eras without a huge tech lead.
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Post by metallian on Oct 16, 2007 21:47:21 GMT -5
The good thing about Flanking is that HAs got the much-needed love that they've been missing. The bad is that it's very difficult to play a later era game or to play a long game into the later eras without a huge tech lead. They already made them better with them not receiving the -10% city attack against cities and making chariots more expensive. Those changes made the HA a much more useful unit, however with flanking they become an overpowering unit. Problem with BTS is the developers added all this stupid nuts with the idea that it would help the AI, yet MP players are fairly quick to adjust and exploit the changes. Like I said we don't need 120 turn build fest, which is what BTS has become.
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Post by civerdan on Oct 17, 2007 11:21:06 GMT -5
Yes, and ren Inland sea is now unplayable because of no counter to knight flanking (and spies, but thats another issue). It doesnt matter if u had 30 ele..your opponent just upgrades 10-15 HA to flanking and attacks. he withdraws and your cata die.
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Oct 19, 2007 3:12:33 GMT -5
I still like the combat system a lot more than warlords one.
I think flanking is a great addition, it just became a bit too good, maybe nerf flanking a bit, make it harder to kill cata. Make presence of horse counter units decrease chance of flanking success.
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ezy
Settler
Posts: 29
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Post by ezy on Oct 19, 2007 10:23:42 GMT -5
maybe if horses just did flanking damage and couldnt kill seige. like cats do vs regular units? so cats wouldnt die and you could still bombard but they would be quite weak when u went for the kill.
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Post by metallian on Oct 19, 2007 14:09:12 GMT -5
Another Idea is only allow the flank attack after two promos, For instance Horse units would need to have flanking 1 and 2 to even get the promo available to flank seige units, maybe have flanking 3 promo. 3 promo fast movers aren't exactly easy to get unless you have general and use it on multiple units or you are Mongolia or Carthage (Numidian Cavs are so weak anyways.) This would allow different type of promos used on horse units and those flanking units would be significantly weaker than the opponents strength units. Yesterday, I watched Hof bring in a huge stack of cats and elephants and saw corve completely wipe it out with 22 keshiks.
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Post by astax on Oct 19, 2007 23:08:21 GMT -5
I will comment from Ancient era point of view, since it is the one I play most.
I don't think flanking should be removed, just tweaked. Make spears work better against flanking. As it stands only way to block flanking is to have enough eli for each HA and not get the elephant catted down to a point where HA will survive the attack.
Also I would like the drill promo for cats to work as anti flanking maybe? reduce damage and chance of taking flank damage?
Overall I like the concept of flanking, I feel it should make bringing units liek spears in your stack more rewarding thou.
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Oct 20, 2007 4:50:57 GMT -5
Knights also start with flanking vs cata, higher units vs cannon.
So only going with promos is not the solution. Need to be able to counter flanking a bit, or make it a bit less effective.
However, I think flanking is still a good addition, just a tad overpowered.
I also think overall the catapult is far better now than in warlords.
So kudos for that.
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Post by lporiginalg on Oct 20, 2007 13:56:02 GMT -5
Flanking also gives a slowed amount of messages which makes it semi impossible (for me) to tell what the eff actually happened in the battle. I also think overall the catapult is far better now than in warlords. I unistalled the other day and then while re-downloading bts decided to play some vanilla civ, but lobby was too exmpty so I played SP, ai had city with lonbow, pike and mace, I wook it with 5 catas, and only 2 of my catas died, those were the days hehe.
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Post by DrShot on Oct 20, 2007 16:56:54 GMT -5
From a reality standpoint flanking is very realistic. However this is a game, not a real war similator. Seige units (of the projection sort) were used behind the melee units. They woould send 'stuff' over their armies into the opposing forces and or their strongholds. The concept of fast moving/mounted units moving around the 'front' and taking out the seige in the rear is , again, very realistic. The problem is how overpowering the efect is of flanking. One mounted unit usually takes out several seige units, not even close to a 1:1 ratio, this is crazy. Lets look at the seemingly standard practice of "corrections" for civ4 thus far. Spain: Conq's a unit that was loved and feared. It was weakened; done so by moving the required tech down the line. Ok, so now we have fixed the overpowered Conq's. We must show how foresightful we are, lets create a new civ with a unit that not only requires the old tech for the unit we just nerfed but lets make the new unit at about 20% more powerful!!! Hmm, catapults are too strong, leathal. Lets reduce them to a non-lethal status. We can counter this with an absurd flanking ability to era relevant (mounted) units to make them useless for anything aside from city defense. Why bother tinkering with something only to fk it up creating a situation worse than the original issue?? Is there really NO THOUGHT at all going into this process?
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Post by Atomation on Oct 20, 2007 17:45:13 GMT -5
I think it would be interesting if flanking worked like flanking actually would in real life - the angle you attack from dependent. Have a stack facing a direction (automatically facing a direction in the same direction you moved, but can be altered at a whim) and if mounted units attack from behind or partial damage from the side they can "flank" siege units by attacking them directly, bypassing the tile's normal defenses. No need for this collateral garbage. This would add some depth into how you arrange your units in an attack too - you'd want to have your rear of your main stack covered by some anti mounted units to prevent such an attack. Perhaps a stack could even be configured to have units facing certain directions with it's own formation screen where you could arrange where your units defend in a 9 tile matrix that lies within a tile. When an attack comes it checks this matrix for the closest defender first then best defender second. Overall the current combat system civ has is too simplistic to be effectively strategic in any way shape or form.
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Post by Polydeukes on Oct 20, 2007 23:53:17 GMT -5
flanking sucks!! gimme my 22 catapults back
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Post by chuckynorris on Oct 21, 2007 7:44:19 GMT -5
dont see how flanking is realistic. horse units should not be able to run to the back and kill all catapults. some spears should be at the back protecting them so they cant be slaughtered.
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Post by 9iron9 on Oct 22, 2007 3:45:58 GMT -5
I think it would be interesting if flanking worked like flanking actually would in real life - the angle you attack from dependent. Have a stack facing a direction (automatically facing a direction in the same direction you moved, but can be altered at a whim) and if mounted units attack from behind or partial damage from the side they can "flank" siege units by attacking them directly, bypassing the tile's normal defenses. No need for this collateral garbage. This would add some depth into how you arrange your units in an attack too - you'd want to have your rear of your main stack covered by some anti mounted units to prevent such an attack. Perhaps a stack could even be configured to have units facing certain directions with it's own formation screen where you could arrange where your units defend in a 9 tile matrix that lies within a tile. When an attack comes it checks this matrix for the closest defender first then best defender second. Overall the current combat system civ has is too simplistic to be effectively strategic in any way shape or form. having formations i think would be an excellent addition. would certainly make u htink more and make attking, defending alot more tactical. if a single unit maybe have the defender have -10% if attked from behind and -5% from the side, or something like tht. makes sense tht if ur attked from behind you are at a serious disadvantage.
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Post by MookieNJ on Oct 30, 2007 21:14:06 GMT -5
Flanking was an awful early idea at how to fix the Catapult dilemma from Warlords. Although other better ideas were implemented, for some god awful reason the developers decided to leave this piece of crap in the game as well. Enough Horse Archers in an Ancient game render Catapults utterly useless, as they'll hardly ever make it to a city to begin bombardment, let alone cause collateral damage.
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Post by lporiginalg on Nov 8, 2007 15:51:13 GMT -5
I hate flanking so much. Seriously who is the friggen genious that came up with the idea that siege units should automatically die just because mounted units hit your stack.
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Post by DrShot on Nov 8, 2007 16:57:59 GMT -5
I hate flanking so much. Seriously who is the friggen genious that came up with the idea that siege units should automatically die just because mounted units hit your stack. Seige units do not automatically die... The attacking unit must either live outright or withdras from an attack to do successful colalteral of complete damage. Good idea or not, you need to first understand how it really works, thank you.
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Post by lporiginalg on Nov 11, 2007 18:51:30 GMT -5
the fact that withdrawing units cause flanking damage is completely slowed, I mean the whole concept is slowed as far as this game goes, but that's just horribly stupid.
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