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Post by Canucksoldier on Dec 23, 2005 14:41:43 GMT -5
And btw when you take someones city it may not increase your score for another 20 turns but it instantly decreases there score CS
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Post by lorddragon on Dec 23, 2005 15:05:32 GMT -5
I can confirm the cost increase on quick. I played 2 MP games on quick last night. Workers and settlers cost more, as do warriors, archers, spearmen, axemen etc. I can't confirm every single unit costing more, but I use those enough to be sure. For instance on turn 2 it takes 10 turns to make a worker instead of 8. And a warrior is now 12 instead of 10 hammers.
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Post by lorddragon on Dec 23, 2005 15:10:06 GMT -5
Oh and CS, in fact taking someone's city does increase your score. You get the population points instantly, just not the land. I am sure of this, as my last minute attack taking over my neighbors land boosted me up three spots from taking his population.
P.S. Why couldn't they have included an option to raze or keep a city in game? Was really hoping for one this patch, and SO many ways to do it without causing OOS issues.
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Post by Random on Dec 23, 2005 15:28:21 GMT -5
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Post by tommynt on Dec 23, 2005 15:29:03 GMT -5
3 days ago it wasnt a problem at all but just some feature which has to be dealt with
there s no reason to defend this worsepatching
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Post by lorddragon on Dec 23, 2005 16:56:45 GMT -5
"3 days ago it wasnt a problem at all but just some feature which has to be dealt with there s no reason to defend this worsepatching"
Have to disagree. The great artist move, which admittedly I used on occasion, was cheap. An instant 200 points letting a person with a markedly inferior civ win was annoying. And this also prevents swarm planting of new cities, also highly annoying.
I once won a game because my latest GP was an artist, even though there was only a 10% chance of one. Let me make up a 100 point gap. You shouldn't be able to do that.
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Post by eiffel on Dec 23, 2005 17:32:42 GMT -5
You're right lorddragon, said like that, i can't disagree. Was just pointing that removing all surprise to a game is fun for mathematicians... maybe not fun for everyfay online players. Going this way further, game will be fair, will be balanced, will be very well thought... but could become "not fun", who said boring ? I love Civ4, it is more balanced and far "deeper" than Conquests, much more strategic but, to be honest, I couldn't say it is "funnier" than Conquests... I know that giving example, i will have an answer saying civ4 is not civ3 but i dare to give one or two ;D You had to put sentries to protect your land and see opponents coming... your fault or your strategic choice if you didn't see them coming... and big emotion if a big stack made through. In Civ4, you have very very large borders and you even see 1 or 2 tiles outside of them... and you see what is inside boats . Who had no great adrenalin after a surprise landing, especially with lighthouse wonder ? In Civ4, you can't even risk to cross ocean... and 2 empty galleys can block the coast, they'll be hard to kill.
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Post by MMV on Dec 23, 2005 18:02:22 GMT -5
seeing inside boats is just NOT possible in real life - past or present; it wasn't possible in any of the other civ games and should REALLY be fixed so you can't see what's inside in C4.
of course................ a galley carrying 4 ModernArmors is not possible in real life either, lol. (and I haven't played a C4 future yet to see if it's possible as it was in C3)
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Post by Sidhe on Dec 23, 2005 19:39:28 GMT -5
agree with MMV, he's absolutely right. Not just that it now seems everything takes longer to build. Now it's just a builders game, I can't get enough units to attack at the end? Why has firaxis pandered to the builder crowd? at the moment it simply is who has the best land who wins.
Now this is good for singleplayer but for MP, it's extremely annoying. We didn't need the lame ass extra cost for units, apart from Praetorian bulids etc.The only solution I see is we can now play an extra 30 turns for a game, shame on you Firaxis, we want a 2-3 hour game? not a 4 hour game? Stop listening to the single player non agressive crowd, we want a game where we can beat people by attacking, not a lame buildfest, boredomfest? I just played a game where I was India , I came second in it, not through good play, but because I could improve my land faster than anyone else; increasing all costs has really made this game a matter of what land you have, and not a matter of what you can do to choke or attack? Sheez really, much as I apreciate the input the single player crowd has given, I'm tired of just playing builder crap! whoop de friggin do, I came second with crap land, cause noone could attack me, cause they were waiting for 3 and a half million years to build anything? MP should be dictated by MP players, or am I just crazy?
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Post by lorddragon on Dec 23, 2005 19:54:25 GMT -5
There is still suprise, lol. Last game, 10 turns from the end, I was 6th of 8 (horrible game, ganged up on, nm) I launched a suprise attack on my neighbor and seized 2 big cities, enough to put me in 3rd overall.
Besides, you can horde great people and use them for techs or something at the last minute as well.
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Post by tommynt on Dec 23, 2005 20:04:33 GMT -5
in the 120t ctons its not that easy to get a great artist - the guys who getz them have some better advatage as to get some half tech what d mean about 20 points or so. .. and in epic games they are nearly even more useless
also when a clever opp know his neighbour got great artist (and he could know) -. he just have to get senetry net up its not like the 200 points come outa nowhere as some nooby (delete that in your mind if u dont liek it) guys here post
I guess on balancing issues can our still unbeaten frie give u some answers - but 1 really wonder how u might be able to win with some crapp liek all grass and plains(lack of shieldgrass is really anoying) gainst some of these 6 res in cap land which is sometimes around
also i m waitng for the answer who the heck thougth that choping stonhenge to be rdy in t4 d be any good and fit into the histroy of civlilisation
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Post by Sidhe on Dec 24, 2005 5:52:33 GMT -5
That's pretty much what I had as India, although the land further from my capital was a little better. I chopped for stonehenge last game got it turn 6 I think. It still takes a hundred years to build even with the production boost, and anyone can do it so it's not exactly unbalancing. Try and build cultutral improvements alot and any wonders you can, seems to be the only solution to the production hell holes. And hope your low score for most of the game means that no one attacks you. Missed out on a religion early as India, low teching compared to those with better land, but I grabbed one by saving a great prophet to get Theology in one turn too, that helped. I still want to know why everything has been increased in cost? This adds nothing to the game and detracts greatly? Who's lame idea was that, someone mod it back to -20% hammer cost please I agree the great artist boost is cheezy. I once did it twenty five turns before the end cause I felt a bit dubious about it. btw another prod hell hole, made a beeline for music and caught up very quickly in score came third, was first briefly after the boost. Playing against Rome and Persia, nice border buddies hey. Another shag pile land situation. Killed Rome because he left a city weakly defended, after being hassled on his southern flank, moved up to third place had to defend a very strong elephant driven attack from Persia at the same time as attacking Rome, but had deliberatley bee lined for crossbows, and had a couple of catapults which really tore up wave one and then wave two. I will say though that from first impressions the work they've done on the patch appears to be excellent other than the fact that it's a builders paradise now, which hopefully someone will mod out.
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Post by civerdan on Dec 24, 2005 6:28:53 GMT -5
I do not like the increased unit costs myself. I think we all have to add on 10 turns minimum to every game now. 4 more just to just your warrriors (or quechas) out. Tack on a few more for a settler and worker. This also has the effect reducing early game choking since people will be more likely to find resources before your opponent can choke you since most research in the early game is river/palace and not cottage driven. Maybe this is a good thing. Though it still doesnt matter if you cant get metal with you second city without putting it so far away you cannot reinforce it.
I agree about the 3 food issue also. One random game yesterday I was spain with only a cow food resource in the capital and no copper or horse anywhere near. If my Iron wasnt 2 from my capital and didnt have as much forest as I did, or this was a small map, I would have been in trouble as Greek with copper in cap and Mali were neighbors.
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Post by Magzi on Dec 24, 2005 6:31:57 GMT -5
Hmm...if it's a builders paradise, how come I keep getting killed? I do find the game painfully slow to get going though, which may explain dying...I usually start doing something else!
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Post by Sidhe on Dec 24, 2005 8:38:07 GMT -5
You wan't to try classical and higher, industrial gives you three cities and is a little slow to start, but it rapidly picks up pace. Future well that's just an all out onslaught from turn one, which is pretty much as it should be. Hopefully someone will mod an ancient with a worker to start or reduced building costs back down to there prepatch levels, so that mp becomes a 2-3 hour game again, instead of the 3-4 hours it will be now. The faster pace of the game was making it more popular, so they decided to slow it down? I really fail to see the logic here? Maybe the ickle diddums players were fed up of getting choked or rushed, all part of the game I'm afraid, it sucks but nine times out of ten you can do something about it. Right that's me moaned out. Brilliant patch in some respects released in time for christmas, nice work, but man what were you thinking? And connection issues seem now to have increased, meaning I cannot play with some players I could before? damn it ok a few more gripes. hrmmf
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Dec 24, 2005 17:09:56 GMT -5
I heard a rumor somewhere that the 20% increase was unintended, and will be fixed... timetable unspecified, but will be fixed.
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Post by tommynt on Dec 24, 2005 17:17:13 GMT -5
ah ya in teamers u start now only with 2 techs ... kinda anoying espacially as many people think start is slow anyway
its not the right place but how about implement in next patch no choping of wonders (or at least no superbunoschoping for inducivs)
and for generall choping is just overpowered - proly make it take 4-5 turns as much as for improving your land i see no reason why it should be faster as the normal worker improvements
ya really bs just cause poeple use their hardly earned artists - i m not honoured for taking a city 22 turn before end and plant a new 3 turns later - but if i rush a wonder in last turn i get fully points wtf - like that last 20 points are even more buildfests as ctons have been before
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Post by Random on Dec 24, 2005 17:21:32 GMT -5
I think choppers should be penalized at some point in the early game say with mass unhappiness and pop reduction.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Dec 24, 2005 17:50:39 GMT -5
Well chopping your forests while benifial in the short term has long term problems, forests due give you .5 health so in the long run your desolate city isn't going to grow due to it being unhealthy.
CS
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Post by Tony on Dec 24, 2005 18:46:05 GMT -5
The game would be even slower if chops are reduced in anyway. The only thing i can agree with is banning them for wonders, but even that dont bother me too much. Without early chops it would take 4ever to build essential improvments, at the start, or in new cites. Edit: Why on earth aint ocean tiles worth pionts, thats unbelivable. If you start on the coast you are doublly punished, firstly not being awarded pionts for your own area, and secondly by having fewer good tiles. By the time you can make water tiles even half decent in a ladder games it too late. What is the logic in this? Currently in the lobby, been trying to connect to a game for 10 mins now, open or ladder (Ive heard the storey about how the world was formed way too many times...."In the beginging the world was without form"...)
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