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Post by DrShot on Dec 19, 2006 22:02:16 GMT -5
cats if to be used for only reducing % that is defenses and walls would be fitting. Untill there are chages on the horizon we need deal with what is on the table now. Like it or not this is what we have to deal with.
Tony, you really make it sound like civ 4 should/is just a builder game, to try and attack is nonesens. I disagree. Killing is fun, further it offers up a change of the same old game. I am so tired of the lame ILS maps. Ancient games suck at any map or setup.
Very few are willing to try new things. I have many people say to me , or others that go for a kill in 'cton' games; 'you want us to both come in last' perhaps I or the others do not care about 1st or second...or last? Often I have and seenothers win and get kill(s) in games. cats too strong, yes, I do not dispute this, I merely offered up some options.
There is one player that will do the same in ctons almost everytime. He is known for this strat and he uses it well. Send the first few units to the closest guy, mkae not a worker till u reach a size 3 or so then worry about expansion. I have had one archer take me 5 units to kill, I had to run around just to try and get any worker functions. kill him and another shows up grrr. this did not set him back, it gave him time to set up a solid foundation for a good civilization. It only required a few units and some trees( early game you cannot cut them all!)
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Post by ironclad on Dec 19, 2006 23:48:51 GMT -5
agree with everything ld said but if you lower ele strength it would really make conquistadors more powerful than they already are in ren. Probably should make conquistadors have 25 percent meele, or no def bonus
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Post by lorddragon on Dec 20, 2006 20:28:09 GMT -5
Yeah, conquistadors probably do need a MINOR nerf, that change from 50% to 25% would work, they still get defensive bonuses, so still insanely powerful.
Another issue is that ivory tends to cluster, and often very few players have it. Without ivory defending against conquistadors is a losing proposition. Really they are one of if not the most overpowered unit right now. Its just that the time periods usually played, for instance ancient and classical, rarely have knights for long unless there is a pure techer. And in later matches you can get guns and rifles quickly to kind of counter.
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Post by Atomation on Dec 20, 2006 21:30:39 GMT -5
No doubt that catapults are insane, but I think they were implimented as a band-aid to have something to kill a well balanced stack in your territory. Without siege it's hard if not impossible, barring you have some sort of imbalanced uu or far superior numbers. I've suggested an anti collateral unit one could add to a stack myself, seems highly plausible but perhaps the devs don't want to add new units.... Another plan might be to just make certain units have a higher power when fighting in friendly borders (and maybe have it boosted more and more with techs like nationalism). However, it seems like attacking is pretty tricky as it is, which is a big problem for being able to play multiplayer, so maybe creating better defensive units isn't such a good idea....the whole combat system for civ is kind of too simplistic imo - it would be better off with a combat zoom into an RTS style interface when a battle occurs.
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Post by lorddragon on Dec 21, 2006 15:17:52 GMT -5
The semi official word is that since this doesn't really impact single player, we are not getting any changes.
I had another thought for catapults too, give them a bombard ability to damage stacks from range, the traditional use. And the range this was available at depends on where the catapult is. If it is in a small city, it gets 2 squares, a medium, 4 , a big 5 or 6. So the bigger the city the longer you can bombard incoming forces if you have a catapult or 2. Just a thought, lol.
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Post by ironclad on Dec 21, 2006 19:58:47 GMT -5
or maybe have it so you can only shoot cats 1 space from cities and forts. Forts can only fit a certain number, and if captured the enemy can raze the fort and pillage the cats. More strategic use of forts then, while cats can still be moved around but cant fire. And if you want to siege a city you must build a fort next to it to fire your cats, and you can only fit a certain number. However if you do not want to fire on the city you can easily go around and not get hit by cats if they do not have forts protecting the area by causing collateral. For later seige units like trebs i dont think its neccessary for them to be in forts though, maybe a new tech so that forts arent neccessary for sieg warfare . Cities and forts should only be able to hold a maximum of cats and such.
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Post by Bonez on Dec 21, 2006 20:01:59 GMT -5
You guys ARE aware you can mod the game or scenarios yourselves right? I honestly cant believe nobody made a new scenario nerfing the catapults yet. It has become a wasted effort to appeal to devs for a patch, so use a scenario instead, and give cats traits that you like... be it whatever... try out a few options and the answer will come forward thru popularity very quickly. LD might be on to something with last post.... perhaps cats should be an in city unit only, able to go to an enemy only thru a worker-made base, like bombers.
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Post by Bantams on Dec 22, 2006 3:35:30 GMT -5
Bonez just come play the game or go ? youre choice Ill teach you some noob tricks if you like ;D
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Post by tamijo on Dec 22, 2006 9:13:36 GMT -5
Well think ahead
If they fix cats, what will be the next topic !
What im saying is, the game is great, i love it If you think cats overpowered build them! if they fix em to be weak, will make a few (more) UU overpovered, start new problems. You will never be able to make a game like this perfect to the taste off everyone. In fact dobbeltmovers is far more overpowered than cats. If y got no horse and opponent get carriots in city (maby even in form off UU) You are waisted. Cats comes later, and the good thing is everyone gets them.
That said, they are a littlebit overpowered, but better than them beeing underpowered.
Tam
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Post by ironclad on Dec 22, 2006 14:53:00 GMT -5
I think Persia should get a Immortal Catupult with strength 10000, and it can attack multiple times. should be very cheap as well.
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Post by civerdan on Dec 25, 2006 21:58:27 GMT -5
Of course one alternative to stopping the mega cat stack is to research Horseback and build HA. Of course the HA are kind of useless if a few elephant are also in the stack. My main gripe is they are as strong as axes in the open field, even on defense. Of course that 5 str is helpful early in Medi teamers where its the strongest unit you can build early...If it were weaker medievil would be even harded to defend early chariot rushes.
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logi
Settler
"I am the state" - Luis XIV
Posts: 2
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Post by logi on Jan 1, 2007 12:57:00 GMT -5
I think cats should be more like they were in Civ 3! When they were easily encountered and were only good for protecting/bombarding... I miss the bombarding...
And for War elephants, they aren't THAT great, I think you much more should focus on getting the preatorian more balanced... The way it is now is crazy o.o
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Post by Tony on Jan 1, 2007 16:08:45 GMT -5
man this catapult problem just gets worse and worse everytime i play. Without elpahnts classical is just mass catapult stacks. The first 2.5 eras have been runind soo bad!
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Post by pnity on Jan 2, 2007 7:10:05 GMT -5
Maybe Civ4 need to fix the whole system for balance.
Example :
A player has low population, but has high power/unit amounts. It is an unreal thing.
You dont have enough people. then you cant get enough solider from your kingdom.
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Post by ironclad on Jan 3, 2007 12:32:09 GMT -5
I think cats should be more like they were in Civ 3! When they were easily encountered and were only good for protecting/bombarding... I miss the bombarding... And for War elephants, they aren't THAT great, I think you much more should focus on getting the preatorian more balanced... The way it is now is crazy o.o Prat is a UU, suppose to be powerful, even then easily countered by maces. where as eles last as long as knights. I agree I like the bombarding of roads and improvements. Not so easy to road front then.
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Post by ironclad on Jan 3, 2007 12:34:52 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with ele being strong though, it gets no def bonus, there is always gonna be a strongest unit of any age
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Post by Tony on Jan 4, 2007 6:56:15 GMT -5
yeah i have no complaints against elephants, they are very strong but im all for unblancing features, this is why i like pangaea/blanced and really think mirror is dull. CIV isnt meant to be totally balanced IMO, although very close starts are kinda stupid, then the game is too much of a lottery even for me.
But catapults are something else, they have effectivly broken this rock-sissors-paper(RSP) thing. I would prefer attack and defense values, this makes the game alot more interesting, but they have decided to use this RSP stuff, which is fine but catapults have broeken this trend, as its more like rock-sissors-paper-iron baseball bat.
Not only has it made war even more dull then before it actually gets you pretty fustrated in games.
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Post by CoitusMaximus on Aug 24, 2007 8:20:41 GMT -5
IMO the single biggest problem with cats is their inability to bombard units. Second and near equal is they are too strong and immune to collateral damage. Cats where large heavy objects that had to be towed, and not designed or used to attack anything, only to bombard. If the terrain they where on was wet/soft, or rocky/hilly they where virtually immobile and thus sitting ducks. I guess the dev team wants us to think that cats where pushed headlong, crashing into the front lines of opposing forces, knocking them down like bowling pins, and crushing them under the weight of their massive wheels. WTF? That is STUPID! That almost made me want to quit playing. Thank god for Dales Combat Mod, which I have not yet used for bts. Cats like all ranged/bombard units should have more range on a hill. I.E. +1 range. There is a reason that throughout the history of warfare that the high ground was always sought out and fought hard for, it's called gravity. Firaxis is either stupid/lazy and/or cheap. They give us the bare minimum and let the modders amongst us do the the rest of the work for them. I would like to host a game soon, or play on someone else, for those of us who would like to play with the very much improved ranged combat system in Dale's Combat Mod.
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Aug 26, 2007 7:42:30 GMT -5
IMO the single biggest problem with cats is their inability to bombard units. Second and near equal is they are too strong and immune to collateral damage. Cats where large heavy objects that had to be towed, and not designed or used to attack anything, only to bombard. If the terrain they where on was wet/soft, or rocky/hilly they where virtually immobile and thus sitting ducks. I guess the dev team wants us to think that cats where pushed headlong, crashing into the front lines of opposing forces, knocking them down like bowling pins, and crushing them under the weight of their massive wheels. WTF? That is STUPID! That almost made me want to quit playing. Thank god for Dales Combat Mod, which I have not yet used for bts. Cats like all ranged/bombard units should have more range on a hill. I.E. +1 range. There is a reason that throughout the history of warfare that the high ground was always sought out and fought hard for, it's called gravity. Firaxis is either stupid/lazy and/or cheap. They give us the bare minimum and let the modders amongst us do the the rest of the work for them. I would like to host a game soon, or play on someone else, for those of us who would like to play with the very much improved ranged combat system in Dale's Combat Mod. so where do you find this mod?
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