Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Oct 9, 2006 9:40:30 GMT -5
In event 9 finals, MDR's niluge, predalpha and share played against HoK's Gigabyte, GEFORCED and wanggon. The game lagged very badly (until 4 seconds delay between the moment a move is ordered and the moment it is done ). Two players from HoK had huge pings (about 500) and admitted they were causing this lag. But they didn't worry much about that, they just laugh saying they had made their previous games laggy too. (what is funny about that is a point I don't understand ) Unfortunately, it was 5 AM for them in Korea, and they had no subs available. They were leading the game, but with everybody still alive and more than 50 turns left, many things could have happened. We contacted Levi, TD of the event, about that. He told us that he could not do anything, that since they had no sub, we have to continue playing. Of course he couldn't take any other decision. After 3 hours dealing with this lag (and not half the game played in this time), two of our players (niluge and share) were getting upset and tired, and wanted to be subbed. So they left the game and two new players (Romazi and me) came. But, the game crashed, and we were not able to make it restart. We've been trying to launch it with different ways form 1 hour, but nothing worked. Most of the time, Geforced, who tried to host, crashed before everybody can join the game. Both teams did not want to concede. And at that time, HoK players started insulting us, and treated us a cheaters, because we delayed the game for subs. I have many screenshots of that. I see no need to post it here, I will only if HoK players tries to deny what I am saying. Seeing that, we were fed up with this guys, and we decided to concede. One point has to be clear : the aim of this thread is not to get our points back. We have conceded and reported our loss, this is over. If I open this thread, it is because we don't want to see that again. CCC is a friendly competition, there is nothing to win in it, we play it as a hobby, and something like what happened yesterday can not be tolerated. Guys who have very bad connections (I know, they can do nothing about that, unfortunately), who know that, but keep playing an unplayable game, and insult the opponents who don't want to concede, I don't see where is the fun playing with this kind of players. I don't know exactly what can be done, but we have to think and find a way to avoid that.
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Post by geforced on Oct 9, 2006 10:34:42 GMT -5
lol? yes the game was laggy, wanggon and gigga had bad connection that day, i told you that, i think we were more pissed about the lag than you. you pause the game 50 turns into play after your rush gets defeated and odds of you winning the game arnt good, for 10 mins the game is paused wthout giving a reason? and then decide two players want to sub because they were "bored" and that "because of the lag, i kept getting all the first moves".. well even if it wasnt laggy, ill still be faster, and get those moves. so, instead of just subbing you ask to rehost because levi said it should help clear the lag also.. so i host the save game, and crash.. i host again.. warlords locks up my computer.. and again, and again.. the a MDR hosts and crashes.. so im getting pretty pissed.. just as everyone else i imagine. 1 hour later we get a game running, MDR hosted, but it was an old save, 4 turns back.. MDR had a small stack of chariots and instead of blindly moving next to my impis, they moved away, MDR did serveral diffrent moves than had previously taken place.. so we called cheat and i explained why we said it ingame, but you just ignored it, and went off on one how MDR will not be insulted and that you concede, we pleaded and begged for you to finish the game, after one hour of crashing and waiting, your just gonna concede, at the end of the day we are here to play
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Post by tommynt on Oct 9, 2006 12:13:30 GMT -5
Imo a stronger presence and espacially a far stronger and faster desicion taking of td, htd and admins is needed is such cases.
OK Levi was around very often, but it s his task to do a decision, not to say "i can do nothing". Why should he not be able to make a desicion? a screenshot of pings and maybe the stuff said by 1 team should be easily enough evidence to make a desicon to rule the lagging clan out. Apart that is offensive verbal abusing in chat gainst ladder rules. So a team could and should imo be ruled out of a event right away when such stuff happens.
If admins and td never force desicions, the nonsporty clans and guys ll dominate in future and the fair playing guys ll leave. Bad enough that like whole GC clan left, all very fun and sporty guys.
Imo behaviour like "haha we lag and u suck and can do nothing" should be cleaned out right away. But there seems to be stuff being accepted by admins while they try to be strict in imo minor stuff, I remember this Nod impostering for example lead to a disqualification from whole ccc.
also a clear rule to get rid of bad laggers was suggested often enough but sadly never implemented, think thats 1 priority for next ccc
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Post by MookieNJ on Oct 9, 2006 12:21:49 GMT -5
We had a similar problem with another clan yesterday.
One of their players was pinging at 500-600ms throughout most of the game. Strangely, every once in a while it would drop down to an acceptable level for a few minutes, which would make the game temporarily playable. This player dropped 30 seconds into the first turn of the game. Because of his horrendous ping he could not rejoin the game. We waited while he restarted, rebooted, etc. and eventually had to reload. Finally, after 1 hour of waiting, we are ready to finish turn 1.
Once reloaded, the 500 ping guy was killing us. Each second on the timer took about 5 seconds and it was nearly impossible to move units around. The game was no fun and very unplayable. The told us they had no subs available and that this is just the way we have to play this game. Eventually he dropped again and we had to go through the whole mess of him not being able to reconnect and eventually having to reload from the lobby. Once in the lobby we get all players back and are about to launch, when they tell us that one player has to leave and they are subbing him out. However, it's NOT THE GUY WITH THE 500 PING! Incredible. I thought they had no subs available?
So now we're 2 and a half hours and 20 turns into the game, we play about 3 turns with the sub and then they just concede.
What a waste of time.
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Post by matth on Oct 9, 2006 12:39:57 GMT -5
lol? yes the game was laggy, wanggon and gigga had bad connection that day, i told you that, i think we were more pissed about the lag than you. Well you began the game with a crash of one of your player and sayed that all team conced against your lag... At this moment you didn't look to be pissed off by your lag... We won 2 CCC but we don't know how to make a fast move that's it ? lol Well why not after all you are the faster guy all over the world if you want but still. With such a lag of 3 sec between the time someone order a move and the host (you...) have the information that make the movement done, you always had a huge advantage on our team. And after 3H30 for less than half of the game in a classic they where pissed off and ask for a sub. Nothing to do about who were wining the game at this moment. And anyway a game is never finished. VS MUD team in ren we have half point than them and less powergraph but we killed 1 and won the game. You can't say that we ask for sub in order to delay the game because we were loosing or whatever. But however we conced the game and you won it no problem about that we don't ask anything about this. We just ask to play a game without being insulting while you are the origin of the problem. Well we did our best to make the game less laggy and a bit more playable... We take an ancient save because you ask us to do so and because the good save was crashing everytime. Nothing wrong about that. We never had such connection problem and you can't say it's our fault while it was obviousness that you had a very very worst connection than us. Well, once again we try our best to make the game work and so we make a whole sub so none of our player in the game knew what was the precedent move... It's logical... And we finally conced not only because you treated us of cheater but also because you were treated us of bitch and else wonderfull name. Also you were totally crazy on lobby saying thing like "f**kING MDR" and more... We really don't care about an event won or loss and the evidence is here : we conced the game even if we still think that we had a chance of wining it (we won game that was in a worst situation). As i said we already won 2 CCC and we made third on this one with or without this classical event. The point is that we did our best to play this game with the fairness that all clan knows about us. And if it is to be treated like you did i don't see any interest to continue to play this competition. We were very fair with your team even if we and you, know that you were the lagger that made this game unplayable. At least don't insult us in return, so keep cool and try to find a way to have better connection next time because like this it's unplayable (i mean the problem is more your behaviour than the lag). For Mooki : at least i don't think this clan insult you... I mean i can accept that some has bad connection. Ok. But as Tommy said this kind of behaviour "haha we lag and u suck and can do nothing" and insulting our clan on lobby and in game and allege that we made the game delaying voluntarily can't be tolerate.
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Oct 9, 2006 13:06:01 GMT -5
Remember that we had subbed players, how could we know which moves had been done ?
We all can understand that some player had bad connections and cause lag. This is not the main problem. If you had just apologised for that, and explained quietly that you couldnt change that nor sub someone, our players mat probably have ended the game without getting nervous, and this thread would never had been created.
But instead of that, you laughed about your lag and insulted us. That's what we can not tolerate.
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Post by MookieNJ on Oct 9, 2006 13:10:42 GMT -5
For Mooki : at least i don't think this clan insult you... I mean i can accept that some has bad connection. Ok. But as Tommy said this kind of behaviour "haha we lag and u suck and can do nothing" and insulting our clan on lobby and in game and allege that we made the game delaying voluntarily can't be tolerate. Yeah, that's the big difference -- the clan we were playing was lagging very badly but did not insult us in the game or in the lobby. At least as far as I know as they were speaking another language a lot of the time .
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Post by Gogf on Oct 9, 2006 17:56:18 GMT -5
When I opened the lobby last night, the first thing I saw was "F***ING MDR," followed by a slew of other insults - all of which came from the Korean team. While I question the validity of the assertion that MDR was delaying the game, that's irrelevant; HoK's reaction to the supposed delay was entirely inappropriate. This total and utter lack of sportsmanship cannot and should not be tolerated, particularly in the CCC.
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Post by deyreepher on Oct 9, 2006 20:51:18 GMT -5
Um, hate to break it to you guys, but there's nothing that can be done about the lag. This game is being played worldwide and when you have players in a game from N. America, Europe, and Asia in one game, you're just going to be in for a rough ride.
There's a reason why FPSers tend to play on servers that are closest to them and why people fly to different parts of the world for tournaments. Just pray for the day that the Civ franchise is able to have globally hosted multi-player tournaments. Anyone rich enough to host one?
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Post by wanggon on Oct 9, 2006 22:05:29 GMT -5
MDR u guys insult us to the end first of all i apologzie about an infelicitous remark but about lag im from korea, giga is from australia at least we r far away from u im afraid we played with laggy but u guys seems lack tolerance is this ccc only for eu or america ? isnt it world championship ? and u guys got unsportsmanship so we were so angry u delayed match for 1hours reason of game bore what a nice reason 1hours later.. after all we reload 4 turn back save and u did cheat like geforced`s speaking cant u apologzie us about that behavior ? at least im sure that u guys r egoist
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Post by mansurji on Oct 9, 2006 23:13:59 GMT -5
im breaking too for a remark: about the lag, the global use of Hamachi could help alot, perhaps it could be worth to rule about having hamachi before CCC and to open some hamachi's servers during the WE? What you think about this?
Well, i'm not really involved in this conflict ( all i've made is being on lobby to see HOK insults ) but i guess that everyone reading the thread above can answer to wanngon ( he obviously didnt read it )
They didnt cheat on the end, because MDR's players changed during the break. So the new players couldnt knew about old moves you requiered to be the same... it's a pity but few one can do. Try to understand this easy point please : IT WASNT THE SAME PLAYERS SO THEY COULDNT KNEW ABOUT OLD MOVES, this might change your point of view on the situation.
Obviously, matter wasnt the lag itself, but the behaviour you had about it. We're tolerant, sometime EU players got lag too but usually games go without insults... when players respects each others. It looks like something has been wrong in your game, lack of respect i think, and MDR played enough CCC games to prove their fair-play and respectness.
The game allow subbing, niluge and share get bored of the lag, they asked a sub. Is that unsportmanship ? Not necessary using the common definition. Insulting an opponent on the lobby is fitting way more to it imo... You was angry ? Damn, learn to control yourself, that's what i say. If you can't, then admins should teach you how to.
A last thing, i like it when you say : << first of all i apologize (...) >> when first of all you say that MDR insulted you on the end. Reveal a lot about your spirit.
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Post by GigaByte1128 on Oct 10, 2006 1:33:56 GMT -5
You was angry ? Damn, learn to control yourself, that's what i say. If you can't, then admins should teach you how to. A last thing, i like it when you say : << first of all i apologize (...) >> when first of all you say that MDR insulted you on the end. Reveal a lot about your spirit. You want me to control myself? Dude it was 5AM when MDR paused game and started looking for sub....when sub tried to connect one of them failed to come in, and so MDR suggested we go to lobby for a reload, we did and it took 1 hour to get game running again..in my eyes this was very annoying because i was so tired and so was wanggon.. i did get upset and i admit to making fun of the MDR acronym.. so sorry for that...but what really pissed me off was that when we eventually got game up and running... 1 MIN into game MDR called concede. we did tell them to continue but they left so suddenly...this really really annoyed me as i waited 1 hour for NOTHING!
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Post by matth on Oct 10, 2006 2:55:37 GMT -5
You want me to control myself? Dude it was 5AM when MDR paused game and started looking for sub....when sub tried to connect one of them failed to come in, and so MDR suggested we go to lobby for a reload, we did and it took 1 hour to get game running again..in my eyes this was very annoying because i was so tired and so was wanggon.. i did get upset and i admit to making fun of the MDR acronym.. so sorry for that...but what really pissed me off was that when we eventually got game up and running... 1 MIN into game MDR called concede. we did tell them to continue but they left so suddenly...this really really annoyed me as i waited 1 hour for NOTHING! I still don't see why it's our fault if the game was so slow and if it crash and crash and crash again. If we didn't conced the game should have been played during 3 or 4 more hours (It took 3 hours to make less than the first half of the game... And the 2nd part of the game is always longer than the first part...) So you should say thanks MDR for conceding instead of insulting us... A last thing i want to say is that you think we are intolerante about your lag but you were the guy that begining to be crazy because the game was delayed due to crash, we were patient and you don't. The only thing we ask you is that you stop insult us... Nothing more... During the Ironman the game crashed and they took 4 hours before they reach to launch it again... Imagine if all guys react as you did and began to insult each other : f**king RAY, bitch MUD, f**king bitch MDR, LKT suckers.... Well hopefully some players know that it's not the way we play CCC. Just try to learn that : we don't insult each other. See you next CCC PS to DeyReepher : We don't ask anything about the lag : we just post that to explain them that they can't insult other team or players like they did. The only purpose is to avoid such behaviour in the future.
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Post by GigaByte1128 on Oct 10, 2006 5:13:54 GMT -5
I still don't see why it's our fault if the game was so slow and if it crash and crash and crash again. If we didn't conced the game should have been played during 3 or 4 more hours (It took 3 hours to make less than the first half of the game... And the 2nd part of the game is always longer than the first part...) So you should say thanks MDR for conceding instead of insulting us... A last thing i want to say is that you think we are intolerante about your lag but you were the guy that begining to be crazy because the game was delayed due to crash, we were patient and you don't. The only thing we ask you is that you stop insult us... Nothing more... During the Ironman the game crashed and they took 4 hours before they reach to launch it again... Imagine if all guys react as you did and began to insult each other : f**king RAY, bitch MUD, f**king bitch MDR, LKT suckers.... Well hopefully some players know that it's not the way we play CCC. Just try to learn that : we don't insult each other. See you next CCC PS to DeyReepher : We don't ask anything about the lag : we just post that to explain them that they can't insult other team or players like they did. The only purpose is to avoid such behaviour in the future. It wasn't MDR faults that it was slow and it wasn't MDRs fault that all reloads crashed, But if MDR never had to Sub a player this would have never happened..MDR subbed a player simply because 1 of the players was "bored" in this CCC #9 final. About the lag between from me and wanggon, we CAN'T do anything about . In tommynt's thread (#3) he suggested that bad laggers should not be allowed to play CCCs.....WTF! is this saying that Australians, New Zealanders, Koreans etc should NOT play Civ? i know that my ping to Americans is around 500, but you have to understand that I'm in Australia. I don't recall anyone From HoK saying F******* MDRs....maybe i was too tired to notice ...but if we did i apologize to MDR clan. we certainly didn't make MDR concede during the reloaded game, all we said was " Cheaters ", simply because they rewinded the game a few turns backwards, we didnt call them anything else...just " cheaters " Here is a screenshot of MDR calling concede. Sorry for blurry image...image was 2.5MB, i reduced it to 120kb for faster uploading. As you can see MDR conceded and we tried to Stop them.. This wasn't a victory that us HoKs wanted, we wanted to win with the opposition happy, we didnt want to win because of opposition conceding. Well Cya MDR and see you in next CCC, we hope that our next game will be fun and entertaining for us both.
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Oct 10, 2006 7:12:16 GMT -5
we didnt call them anything else...just " cheaters " You didn"t gigabyte, but your teammates did. We are not criticizing you about your lag, but about your behaviour. And guys, please don't say we cheat because we sub players. AFAIK, CCC rules allow it. And the game started 3 hours earlier, only half the game was played, they were tired (it was late here too). I see no abusive use of subs here. And about the long pause and the reload, as I already said it, during this time, I contacted Levi to get his opinion about this horrible lag and what we were supposed to do since the game was unplayable. He suggested to reload the game.
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Post by GigaByte1128 on Oct 10, 2006 10:29:38 GMT -5
we didnt call them anything else...just " cheaters " You didn"t gigabyte, but your teammates did. And guys, please don't say we cheat because we sub players. AFAIK, CCC rules allow it. And the game started 3 hours earlier, only half the game was played, they were tired (it was late here too). I see no abusive use of subs here. And about the long pause and the reload, as I already said it, during this time, I contacted Levi to get his opinion about this horrible lag and what we were supposed to do since the game was unplayable. He suggested to reload the game. We didnt say u cheated for subbing, we said u cheated when u reversed turns.
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Post by tommynt on Oct 10, 2006 14:43:24 GMT -5
thats exactly what i meant, the disucssion u 2 clans are having is pointless, neither ll go of his way of telling the story.
Thats just where admins are td should be there and make a desicion before more accusing and bad words destroy the fun atmosphere even more.
i guess u can stop it now, respect for MDR guys in ladder is bigger anyway so at least I ll take your side of story. apart that i dont think that a ping worse then 500 is "normal", at least not for me. Even with players from all around world people should have pings around 300 when all got a decent connection. If u dont have a decent connection u should just not play a game where u could meet people from all over world. In interest of every1.
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Post by knupp on Oct 10, 2006 14:48:35 GMT -5
"Shut up and play" "what bitches" "this is an f-ing old save"
And in the lobby somebody said MDR f*****? Plus however many other screenshots juni has of the unsportmanship like behavior.
Wow, I think it's pretty obvious something needs to change. If you can't handle yourself in a civil manner you should be disqualified from the event IMO.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 10, 2006 15:04:39 GMT -5
It seems that there was a fair amount of misunderstandings and a lack of communication, not to mention that everyone was tired. So we should be learning some lessons from this, and not have this repeat in a future CCC. Civ4players is about honest and fair competition and good sportmenship, first and foremost, winning at any cost is not an ideal that we will tolerate and for no reason should we ever be calling each other names over a game.
I will be engaging the admin and TD team in a discussion about what to do about excessive lag in the CCC, there likely is not a easy solution, but if we make a rule it will be well known prior to the next CCC.
CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on Oct 10, 2006 15:19:06 GMT -5
Also I will reiterate our long time standing policy on conflicts. Conflicts and accusations are to be taken to the TD, in private, who may bring in the HTD or Admins as available. The lobby is not the place to be taking your issues too. The admin team will not tolerate players and clans that try to take there case to the "court of public opinion". I realize that HoK is a new clan and this was there first CCC, and therefore I am not going to persue disciplinary actions, but this is all clans last warning, we will disqualify a clan from atleast the event in question should anything of this nature happen by any clan again. Fair warning.
CS
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