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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 24, 2005 14:07:57 GMT -5
Jags are rather weak imo... I'd rather have swords. The jungle bonus is practically useless. Jags would be better axemen than swordsmen... but then they'd need to be beefed up since axemen require no resources.
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Post by Onan on Nov 24, 2005 14:57:10 GMT -5
Um, axes require either copper or iron. Jags as resource free axes would be a much larger early threat. Maybe not overly so, though. They would be the Rome of the very early game, though.
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 24, 2005 15:13:06 GMT -5
Um, axes require either copper or iron. Jags as resource free axes would be a much larger early threat. Maybe not overly so, though. They would be the Rome of the very early game, though. Aztecs as resource free axemen? Massively, seriously broken. Think about it - anyone you reached prior to them hooking up their own copper (and it would have to be copper, since no one can get horseback riding that fast, nor iron working) - would be utterly dead. (Especially since the Aztecs can promote them with Cover using a barracks.) Total lockdown, no possible chance of breaking it. Then you just expand until you can actually assail the cities themselves. Very, very bad juju. Way beyond the pale of balanced. Do I sound like I speak from experience on this particular possibility? Maybe I do.
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Post by tommynt on Nov 24, 2005 15:25:23 GMT -5
I allways give the jags a big laugh - by the time they enter oyur land u should just have iron or bronze (its good that they can be build with having iron not with bronze allready - and then they get owned
they nice to secure own boarders gainst early warr/bow/chariot attcks - thats it
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Post by Onan on Nov 24, 2005 17:11:53 GMT -5
Oh yeah. I forgot about that.
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Post by Sidhe on Nov 24, 2005 17:59:59 GMT -5
I agree it is difficult to press the Jag advantage, but saying that if you go quickly for iron and avoid a religion, they can be a pain in the arse, it's all how you use them, if city taking isn't going to work then as a pillage unit, especially against no bronze civs there pretty annoying. Rome with iron is worse IMO but taking someone out with Rome as Fried said with even resources, is difficult. You know they're there, precisely Fried on a balanced map if you get pounded, your a fool.
Play A balanced map and no threat is too great provided you know they're coming, in a small map avoid religion unless it's one tech away and you can resist any units now, with the patch of course.
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Midgard
Worker
Captain of LoD
Posts: 103
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Post by Midgard on Nov 24, 2005 21:01:23 GMT -5
Not really understanding all this nonsense on Praetorians, They require Iron hence Iron Working which is a later tech by the time Rome gets Iron you should have had them killed or choked to the point of non existance, not to mention big whoop 8 str but they have no other special abilities, swordsman at least get +10% city attack, by the time Rome can get its Praetorians you should have 3x the defense in your cities then they have Praetorians, if your not building barrakcs if your playing against Rome, perhaps you shouldnt be playing , 2-3 archers with city def promotion should defend 1-2 praetorians, for better measure put your cities on hills or get some culture. So with that Being said I think Jags are better then Praetorians but even then by the time your opponent gets Jaguars they should be useless for killing.
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 24, 2005 22:20:11 GMT -5
So Jags shouldn't be axemen.... but you have to admit that +25% Jungle defense is a joke. At least give them +25% Jungle/Forest. There's forests in Mexico too An extra +10% attack bonus of some kind would be nice as well. (my bad on the no-resource axemen... I usually have either copper or iron and didn't notice)
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Post by Onan on Nov 24, 2005 22:30:18 GMT -5
What about jags starting with a woodsman one promotion instead? Too crazy on the movement with a barracks and woodsman II?
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 24, 2005 22:43:27 GMT -5
Not really understanding all this nonsense on Praetorians, They require Iron hence Iron Working which is a later tech by the time Rome gets Iron you should have had them killed or choked to the point of non existance, not to mention big whoop 8 str but they have no other special abilities, swordsman at least get +10% city attack, by the time Rome can get its Praetorians you should have 3x the defense in your cities then they have Praetorians, if your not building barrakcs if your playing against Rome, perhaps you shouldnt be playing , 2-3 archers with city def promotion should defend 1-2 praetorians, for better measure put your cities on hills or get some culture. So with that Being said I think Jags are better then Praetorians but even then by the time your opponent gets Jaguars they should be useless for killing. Praetorians rock. They have the strength of macemen. You must be playing the game on "Quick." That's the only thing I can think of... but you're right, a player would be smart to try and take out Rome early -- i.e. War Chariots, Immortals, etc. Praetorian: 8 + City Raider I = 9.6 Strength when attacking a city. You should have Praetorians way before they have longbowmen. Then after you win 1 battle you can upgrade them for City Raider II and go rest on a forested hill with the archer that you brought. You should be able to get a few City Raider III Praetorians.... then go use them against your next target lol.
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 24, 2005 22:44:11 GMT -5
What about jags starting with a woodsman one promotion instead? Too crazy on the movement with a barracks and woodsman II? or what about cheaper shield cost?
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Post by hauptman on Nov 25, 2005 16:51:03 GMT -5
Pretorians too powerful as is, drop them to 7 atk and they would be fine.
Swordsman are 6.6 vs a city. Axemen are 7.5 vs melee. Jaguars are 5 vs everything.
The axeman is a counter, he should be more powerful vs the Pretorian. Just as a spearman is more powerful than all the mounted UUs (even the elephant as its cheaper to build). and Ironworking comes real fast when you drive on it. My only lost duel is against Rome and i had no metal resources. The iron was between us and i lost the early fight for it as he also had copper in his cap, wich rendered my chariots impotant.
The Jag is good that its a no resource unit, that has its uses early game. but yes it could use some sort of beefup, like keep the city attack bonus, or woodsman1 could make them a nice "musketeer" of the early game without the inability to defend against it, just chop down them forests to a) produce more archers/ barracks, and 2) deny the forest movement near your cities.
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Post by lporiginalg on Dec 2, 2005 0:43:28 GMT -5
I think there DEFINATELY needs to be some kind of rule for this and I'll tell you why. Dying on turn 5 sucks, but how about dying on turn 1? Here's a story...
Started a 10 man cton the other day (yes we were ambitious) we launched the game and I'm sitting there waiting for it to start. Seems to take longer since patch, the game seems frozen at start while your waiting for everyone to join, timer is sitting there at 40 seconds, not moving. Of course with that many people the main question on my mind was 'is this game gonna happen?' Then the timer started moving. Sweet. I selected my scout and was about to move him when BAM 'You're settler has been destroyed by a wolf' the timer was at 37, 3 seconds had passed and I hadn't even moved a unit much less planted my city. Luckily the people aggreed not to make me report and I would've refused anyway because that was PURE bs so there should be some kind of policy for that I do say. I mean snap, my settler spawned on a wolf!
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Post by Onan on Dec 2, 2005 1:57:23 GMT -5
That actually sounds like a bug.
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Post by whiplash on Dec 2, 2005 10:08:54 GMT -5
You don't mention the size/type of map. Seems like 10 players over-stressed the map generator.
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Post by civerdan on Dec 3, 2005 19:28:14 GMT -5
I had a small lakes map game where Cruise in in my city before I could build a warrior. Obviously we agreed to restart.
The trick to map sizing is a certain map size doesnt work for say 6 players on every type of map and era. For Ex: Small Inland Sea is fine for 6 on ancient, but Medievel or later scout/explorers are in your land as soon as you plant. Also, I played a Highlands map with 7 on standard, didnt see a border until 65 turns in, doh.
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Post by ironclad on Dec 3, 2005 21:28:15 GMT -5
that is why u micro manage to bring out more sheilds when u get rushed early sometimes u get times 3 production but almost always u can always double prod if u micromange so a warrior always 10 is actually gonna be 5 but ur city willo just grow slower prats arent unbalanced they can easily be matched with copper but if he choked ur copper or iron then ur in a hell of nuts lol..
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Post by Cereal_Killa on Dec 4, 2005 1:10:24 GMT -5
To the OP:
Have a look @ your starting techs. Hunting is required to build Scouts. Different Civs start with different techs.
If you don't start with Hunting you get a Warrior. However, if you do start with Hunting it gets 'upgraded' to a Scout.
Get to know your Civs. Know which start with a Warrior and which start with a Scout. As people are choosing their Civs you should know who is rushable and who isn't.
I tend to play with Civs that start with a Scout and always get rushed by the Decent players in about 5 turns.
You don't have to report people, it's not cheating. You just don't fully understand how the game works.
"It's fine. Lern2play" -Unknown Wiseman-
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