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Post by willburn on Dec 14, 2006 19:16:33 GMT -5
I wasnt out to abuse the game in any way. Like i said back in the good old days it used to be a legit tactic. Just as legit as 2 moving. Obviously it isnt now but thats how you live and learn.
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Post by Speaker on Dec 14, 2006 23:51:37 GMT -5
What I meant was that the MGT decision was the greatest error in judgement of the admins in my nearly 4 year stint. Here is where our opinions differ. The MGT brunch decision was to follow the letter of the rules and decide to change our rules for the future. After all, who can take an organization seriously if it does not obey it's own bylaws? 6 or 7 reports for the future good of the ladder is not much to ask. Notice that this situation was able to be handled quickly and efficiently with no complaints from anyone in the game. Would that have been possible without the MGT brunch episode? I think not. So in a way, MGT is actually a public do-gooder.
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Post by diadem on Dec 15, 2006 2:43:51 GMT -5
May I ask what this MGT brunch is that you all talk about? And what it has to do with admins? What did the admins decide about it?
And wtf is spy expelling :?
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Post by Necrominousss on Dec 15, 2006 3:28:18 GMT -5
I think it was more acceptable in 3c3 because double moving was so strong a move that any counter seemed legitimate. In CIV double movings power has been lesson some with delay. Also enacting animations is the nuts in CIV due to being able to perfectly time re-enforcing city after catapult attack, which wasn't a tactic that would do you much good in c3c.
Personally, I'm not sure I would consider it cheating. But I wouldn't mind seeing a rule against it. The game is already weighted in favor of the defender enough, without this extra advantage. Of course, now with the possible cata death stack receiving no collateral damage, that worm may have turned.
This doesn't seem to be related to MGT's brunch adventure in any way, to me.
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Post by Random on Dec 15, 2006 12:22:16 GMT -5
What I meant was that the MGT decision was the greatest error in judgment of the admins in my nearly 4 year stint. Here is where our opinions differ. The MGT brunch decision was to follow the letter of the rules and decide to change our rules for the future. After all, who can take an organization seriously if it does not obey it's own bylaws? 6 or 7 reports for the future good of the ladder is not much to ask. Notice that this situation was able to be handled quickly and efficiently with no complaints from anyone in the game. Would that have been possible without the MGT brunch episode? I think not. So in a way, MGT is actually a public do-gooder. LOL thats like saying that Barry Bonds is a public do-gooder ie. in baseball. Hell while you are down there stroking his ego, don't asphyxiate
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Post by Ellestar on Dec 15, 2006 12:38:50 GMT -5
IMHO it's a cheat because it gives you an in-game advantage by out-of-game(play) means. You make it so enemy can't move and you can. Obvious cheating. Speaker talkin about and judging sportmanship rofl I agree After all, Speaker used a no-delay double move with a stack in a ladder game. This bug was known and posted on ladder forums at least 2 months before that. So, it's even worse because it was a known and discussed bug.
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Post by eiffel on Dec 15, 2006 19:26:22 GMT -5
IMHO it's a cheat because it gives you an in-game advantage by out-of-game(play) means. You make it so enemy can't move and you can. Obvious cheating. Spamming numpad to attack a city, what i called "in between turns fast move" makes it so you can't move to reinforce with automoves (ctrl+a)... is it cheating ? It is not how the game is supposed to react, not a legit tactic, so it's an exploit but is done and accepted in every ladder game.
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Post by ironclad on Dec 16, 2006 10:48:04 GMT -5
8 sec rule blows... whos invention was that, had to be someone from the multiplayer beta realm if you know what I mean ??? maybe its neccessary cause of all the lag it takes too move a unit
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Post by ironclad on Dec 16, 2006 10:51:56 GMT -5
the 8sec rule closes options.... no need for sentries... and only one way too attack big ass stack with cats, i bet if there was no 8 sec rule most of that would change and new doors would be open. Isnt that what civ is all about more options!!!!
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Post by mrgametheory on Dec 16, 2006 15:26:19 GMT -5
I would like to point out that I was in the alleged game when all this happened As long as there isn't a rule against doing something (Especially turning on an option that people know slows down combat) you can't penalize someone in an ex post facto manner for being the first to do it, you can make a new rule and ban it from future use. Now don't get me wrong, if some super cool dude figured out an actual cheat in the game, something that was not intended for by the creators or is in fact a flaw in the software of the game, than this is an exploit and is never allowed regardless of if your the first to discover it. BUT - Combat animations were created to entertain imbeciles and give extra time to newbies, thats why it was created, ask any of the game designers. Willburn was (using an option that every one knew about) and he (used it for the reason that the option was created). Hence, Willburn wins argument, rest you newbs lose "CALL 1800-MR-THEORY, I WILL FIGHT FOR YOU!" Now STFU and stop wasting peoples time.
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Post by willburn on Dec 16, 2006 16:22:06 GMT -5
Nono you got me all wrong. I dont argue its should be banned. I just didnt realise it at that point in time when the game was ( because of f.ex what you just stated and more)
It should be banned because it will slow the game down and it its ok to have an attacker advantage with 2 moves. The game is allready quite defensive.
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Post by DrShot on Dec 16, 2006 20:14:02 GMT -5
Yes, the 8 seconds are a pain. Try deception. There are many options available to work around the 8s' rule w/o cheats or cheap 'tricks'
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Post by Random on Dec 17, 2006 0:23:45 GMT -5
I would like to point out that I was in the alleged game when all this happened As long as there isn't a rule against doing something (Especially turning on an option that people know slows down combat) you can't penalize someone in an ex post facto manner for being the first to do it, you can make a new rule and ban it from future use. Now don't get me wrong, if some super cool dude figured out an actual cheat in the game, something that was not intended for by the creators or is in fact a flaw in the software of the game, than this is an exploit and is never allowed regardless of if your the first to discover it. BUT - Combat animations were created to entertain imbeciles and give extra time to newbies, thats why it was created, ask any of the game designers. Willburn was (using an option that every one knew about) and he (used it for the reason that the option was created). Hence, Willburn wins argument, rest you newbs lose "CALL 1800-MR-THEORY, I WILL FIGHT FOR YOU!" Now STFU and stop wasting peoples time. . All that statement is about is for all of you to try to cheat in any unknown way you can. After all if it is not in the rules it is not yet cheating... But as alway I am sure many here will take that as sound advice... And if this is how you always play, then you are in fact a cheater. An exploit or manipulation know or unknown, should be announced to all and the ruled upon. I will give you some advice that is better... If you have to ask (wrong or not) then it is wrong and do not do it.
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Post by mrgametheory on Dec 17, 2006 0:53:02 GMT -5
Lets all take a breath, a moment, lets look at what I just said, and than lets take a look at Randoms replies. We need to do this, because hes very confused and he needs guidance. I only do this because I get annoyed with people who give opinions without facts and comment on statements without reading them. ----------------------------- Random - All that statement is about is for all of you to try to cheat in any unknown way you can. Me - Now don't get me wrong, if some super cool dude figured out an actual cheat in the game, something that was not intended for by the creators or is in fact a flaw in the software of the game, than this is an exploit and is never allowed regardless of if your the first to discover it. ----------------------------------------------------- Pay attention to the fact that his reply to what I had to say reflects the complete opposite of what was said.... Why did he answer in such a way? I would go and say a lack of skill in reading comprehension, but assuming his reading comprehension if fine, I guess he just didn't really read it. Its obviously either one or the other. (think about it, it has to be one or the other). This means that he gives his opinion on something he doesn't completely understand..... So this understood, keep this in mind when you read posts from this person in the future. -------------------------------------------------------- Random - After all if it is not in the rules it is not yet cheating... But as alway I am sure many here will take that as sound advice... ME - Notice the Sarcasm which justifies a counter statement of defense on ones own credibility negating him crying to an admin to have this eye opening post removed so none can see the truth --------------------------------------------------------- Random - An exploit or manipulation know or unknown, should be announced to all and the ruled upon. Me - you can't penalize someone in an ex post facto manner for being the first to do it, you can make a new rule and ban it from future use. ------------------------------------------------------------ As you see, random is repeating my opinion as his own but he disagrees with what I said. I am very confused in what he is trying to accomplish with all of this, but I think if we all sit and help him out he will get back on tract. We salute you Random for trying, and we know your doing your best........
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Post by MMV on Dec 17, 2006 13:38:51 GMT -5
SHUFFLE UP AND DEAL!!!
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Post by Necrominousss on Dec 17, 2006 14:33:19 GMT -5
MGT = Delusional
I hope your not really trying to become a lawyer. If so you need to do much more studying.
My reading comprehision is sufficeint and my conclusion is that ramdom is insinuating that you are a creep, MTG. Tell me where I'm wrong.
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Post by willburn on Dec 17, 2006 15:03:00 GMT -5
Eh they are both saying the same thing. While i generaly dont support MGT on many subjects you cant beat his logic here.. But I guess its just" MGT bashing time"? whats up with that people...
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Post by diadem on Dec 17, 2006 16:50:46 GMT -5
Errr, it seems to me that MGT is right here.
People sometimes do that to me as well, and it's hugely annoying. I say something, and they say "No, you're wrong, because ..." and then repeat the exact same thing I just said, in a different phrasing.
If you're gonna disagree with someone, then at least disagree with that person. Otherwise just say 'yes'.
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Post by Necrominousss on Dec 17, 2006 17:30:50 GMT -5
You guys must be reading an alternate reality version of what was said because he is not repeating or rephrasing or agreeing MGT. The intent of the two post are completely opposite.
And also I'm not saying MGT is anything just commenting on other post. If you can figure out some trick or exploit (cheat possible) no one else knows of, then, more power to you. You deserve to get the benefits of it till others discover it, I guess, or till its patched away or banned. But I guess everyone's moral compass may be pointed in a different direction. Hmm, am I agreeing with MGT or insinuating people who use an exploit are creeps?
BTW, how do you determine when an trick or tactic allowed by game mechanics turns to the dark side and becomes an exploit or cheat and how does admins decide punishment when dealing with such a gray area? It's surely not fair to have advantage due to some sloppy programming.
I bet I could find in each post written after mine, many statements agreeing with me, even though they may disagree with the content as a whole. See how smart I am, everyone agrees with me.[/i]
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Post by MMV on Dec 17, 2006 17:37:52 GMT -5
emgeetea - Yes, we all know and are completely aware of your "theories" on specific rules even though they are already stated under more general theories.
wilburn, as he stated, made a mistake, appologized, and that was that.
Most of the "not specifically stated" rules are covered under Rule 15 of the Ladder - GOOD SPORTSMANSHIP: The basic premise of the ladder is to facilitate players finding each other, who are devoted to Civilization IV, so they may compete in a sportsman-like manner. Our philosophy is play hard, but play fairly. It is NOT winning at any cost. Any player exploiting game deficiencies as determined by the Admin Team risk expulsion or severe penalties
But then there are fools amongst us who don't/won't see something specific such as cton rules that state "no alliances" and "no diplo contact" and "no private messaging" and see that it doesn't specifically mention "cell-phone chat" so they'll try it JUST BECAUSE it's not specifically listed.
The rest of the "not specifically stated" rules are covered under the "Cheating Rule" of the Ladder - It goes without saying that we won't stand for cheating of any kind. This includes, but is not limited to, breaking rules, using modified executables, reporting false results, or otherwise tampering with Ladder rankings
Finally, the remainder of the "not specifically stated" rules are covered under the "Filll in the Blank Rule" of the Ladder - We can't cover every aspect of gaming in our rules. We have tried to be as thorough as possible and cover all the basics. However, just because something is not listed doesn't meant that it is allowed. Use common sense. If it is something that will adversely effect other players and you might think twice about doing it's probably against the rules
Fortunately, this narrows the list of "fools amongst us" to a ladder party of one.
Remember - brunch is only available on weekends between 10:00am and 2:00pm local time
SHUFFLE UP AND DEAL!!!
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