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Post by tamijo on Jun 10, 2006 2:12:54 GMT -5
No respose to my post on a little collateral dammage from archers ect.
y think it stinks or what ?
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 10, 2006 3:38:47 GMT -5
No respose to my post on a little collateral dammage from archers ect. y think it stinks or what ? If the collateral was on defense they would just attack one by one If the collateral was on attack then you would have the same problem as you do with catapults. Here's my solution - 1. Make catapults bombard range 2 2. Make horse archers/knights/cavalry always fight catapults when they attack a stack. This is realistic as horse archers could hit the slower units and avoid the faster ones in real life. This would also make horse archers worthwhile after all - currently they arn't worth it when you compare strength to hammer cost of horse archers vs chariots. With these rules you would be forced to march catapults behind your infantry stack and you would be forced to have horses scouting out front for enemy catapults.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 10, 2006 3:53:13 GMT -5
I don't think that solution is practical. Imagine a renaissance situation where player A is attacking player B with knights or cavalry and catapult backup (on a city that needs bombardment, e.g. culture bombed.) Player B has roaded around his city quite well and has similar numbers of knights and cavalry.
Whereas earlier A could have brought in his catapults under cover of mounted units and pikes, and bombarded from a hill or secure location, A can no longer do that because his catapults are not defensible. Instead, A needs to try to duck his catapults behind his other stack. However, B's mounted units have 6 moves on his roads with which to run around, kill his catapults, and hide! It would be almost completely impossible to prevent his catapults from dying immediately.
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 10, 2006 5:00:53 GMT -5
You could destroy the roads or you could surround the catapult stack with pikes and knights/cavalry. Basically it would force people to break up their stacks thus stopping the stack of doom which is ideal really.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 10, 2006 13:27:14 GMT -5
churchill dude why didnt u go in with single horses? I can think oif several ways in which i could have played it better. LOL. but i wasnt thinking straight at the time i was just mjessing. he had just his cap (to my 3/4 cities). i am pretty sure he didnt make a worker the whole game, cos he was choked like crazy. and i just had to finish him off. I was mali. btw i would like to try play u some time. but never manage to catch u
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Post by Elledge on Jun 10, 2006 18:07:30 GMT -5
You could destroy the roads or you could surround the catapult stack with pikes and knights/cavalry. Basically it would force people to break up their stacks thus stopping the stack of doom which is ideal really. Sure, it forces the -attacker- to break up his stack. The defender is still going to catapult-rape the attacker if he hangs around on flatland to pillage roads.
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Post by ironclad on Jun 12, 2006 17:49:21 GMT -5
have fun catting one or two unit stacks
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Post by Elledge on Jun 12, 2006 18:27:28 GMT -5
Well, come on, now. Not only do one-or-two-unit-stacks of things like cavalry or knights get raped by other cavalry or knights due to withdraw chance (in the renaissance case) but if they're only one-and-two units stacks, then splat, I go right through them with a monster stack and I hit the catapults sitting behind them.
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Post by ironclad on Jun 13, 2006 1:24:07 GMT -5
well if you have a bigger army thats the end of that story...
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Post by Elledge on Jun 13, 2006 3:14:24 GMT -5
No, I mean suppose you both have 20 cavalry and 5 catapults, and a few defensive bonus units in the city. Say the attacker has 10 more cavalry and 5 more catapults to balance. To recap, this is a proposed game where catapults always defend first, and they can bombard from 2 squares away. So suppose the catapult stack of the bombarding attacker is 2 squares diagonal from the target city. These catapults need to be blocked off from the city (where the attacker has cavs) because otherwise they will get instagibbed by cavalry. That means that if the defender has roads there need to be 5 squares blocked off by the defender as shown in this nutsty diagram: If the attacker can move through any of the squares blocked with an X, then he can single-move the catapults with his cav stack from the city, rape them, and reinforce. That means that those five squares need to be defended by the attacker. How can he do this? The defender has a few catapults to destroy any really big stacks, but unless the attacker has a huge numbers advantage it doesn't even matter because he needs to split his forces up five ways. A small stack of cavs or pikes on an X square will just get catapulted and run down by the defender immediately. The only way the attacker could even think about pulling this off is if the defender has no roads, or if 4 or 5 of the X squares have hills that you can get muskets or pikes onto.
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Post by tommynt on Jun 13, 2006 3:39:12 GMT -5
what attacker should do in ren is kinda easy - get early some woodhill or wood with a longbow close to city - reinforce the longbow asap with a pike and a musket - build up a stack of catas and some muskets and maybe knights - defender ll get lot of muskets usually - now i d wait till cavs constantly sub the wood move injured units out of it and recover - try to stop opp from working city by surounding it a bit - as soon as u got cavs go in with catas and build up a small cav stack - as soon as catas start bombing move your cavs in aswell - oh well now killl city and u ll for sure have less losses then defender
why wait for cavs? - whats really anyoing is that defender if he s clever ll sub his city with some muskets after catas have attacked - even with city def down they ll defend strong with city def upgrade and hill bonus - the lil cav stack is to kill these subbing muskets
what to do if no early advantage ... 1. try to cluture bomb as close to him as possible - still there ll be usually 2 tiles of his boraders left espacially if he culture bombed before - afterwards get stack of cavs at his boraders buiuld a 2nd stack of catas and some muskets and pikes - keep 2nd stack back - now go in with single cavs and pillage - as soon as he attack a cav with his cav - cover it or counter with another cav - after u both wasted some units that way it s time to move 2nd stack in - try cut roads and keep him off hitting your 2nd stack - find some hill for it - constantly move back injured cavs and send in fresh ones - allwys counter and killinjured units from him - maybe use sometimes 2 or 3 minicav stacks to make him waste catas - they ll do few damage - once u reach city with 2 nd stack bomb and gg
this approach work if opp got mainly cavs aswell - if he got pikes and catas mainly - u should really bring in lil 2 or 3 units mixed stacks weith cavs and musket and cata
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Post by sibko on Jun 13, 2006 4:02:37 GMT -5
maybe a new combat unit? Strong:5 (new archer? im not sure, good defender) invulnerable to collateral damage, only out of the cities. and shield cost ... buff .. i dont know , maybe few schields less that a cata .. 35? Ok, i m not the most experience, but is a idea. Greetings
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Post by Atomation on Jun 13, 2006 14:32:48 GMT -5
Maybe there could be a "saboteur" unit that, if on a stack, would defend a collateral damage unit no matter what, and no collateral can occur from this defense. It would have low cost, but low str (1 or 2?) so almost would certainly die for each attack it blocks. Scouts and other exploration units could be upgradable to saboteur units.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 13, 2006 15:16:14 GMT -5
why wait for cavs? - whats really anyoing is that defender if he s clever ll sub his city with some muskets after catas have attacked - even with city def down they ll defend strong with city def upgrade and hill bonus - the lil cav stack is to kill these subbing muskets Also waiting for cavs is useful because they totally rule and the only semi efficient counter to them is the same unit. i dont see what's clever about defending ur city with healthy muskets? but this was intersting to read. in reni teamers i seem to find myself on the back foot when on the front: being attacked rather than attacking. though the oppo is usually more experienced than me and i havent played a million of these style games as others have . so may be i can learn something from this.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 13, 2006 19:04:40 GMT -5
I think the most important thing is to be very aggressive at the start. Do not ever ever let yourself get into the position where his longbows are up in hills by your cities, and yours are stuck there defending the cities. Push forward to him immediately and harass him mercilessly, so you can build up pressure and positional advantage for a later attack.
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Post by tommynt on Jun 14, 2006 0:13:21 GMT -5
nope elledge - newer players should keep units in ciites and wait for 2 on 1 situations - better get a bit pressured and stay allive as having longbows in others land and die
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Post by zzZhenon on Jun 14, 2006 3:31:28 GMT -5
i think that units that have 2 movement shouldn't be affected by collateral dmg. The only flaw is that wtf would we do against cavalry in these ren games?
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Post by Elledge on Jun 14, 2006 4:16:08 GMT -5
Because of course people don't use 2-move units enough already. Macemen, musketmen, and grenadiers should be even more underused!
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Post by smatt834 on Jun 14, 2006 22:38:16 GMT -5
catapults are not all that scarey. split up your stacks, they can be beat with movement. I say divide one stack into three stacks in a row or one movement apart, as you move into enemy territory. The rear and middle stacks should have healing units, and when the front stack gets hit by the enemy's cats as you move in your response should be to move the middle stack forward after the initial hit thereby saving 1/3 of your units from the initial collateral damage. Also move the rear stack to where the middle one was. If the enemy has some more cats on the next turn and hit your stack again, then your rear stack (there is only two now) should step on top before anyother unit type can strike. Then you heal for about two turns and finish your march, hopefully with most of their catapults waisted on your partial stacks, and your catapults brought forward cause you had them put int he rear 1/3 stack of your army.
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