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Post by MookieNJ on Aug 11, 2007 20:45:32 GMT -5
Another thread where I want to tell you all that I feel your pain. Once again, I tried to explain to the developers and single player oriented testers that Spies and Espionage were all fine and good against a hapless AI opponent, but who wants to be the target of all that crap? Spies and Espionage take away the need for a real sentry net and good scouting. That was all fine and good for those who love the flavor of new civs, ethnically skinned units, and new wonder movies. But for those who enjoy the gameplay more than the flavor, we're stuck with a game inferior to Warlords.
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Post by astax on Aug 12, 2007 22:38:22 GMT -5
Sorry to chime in on this subject, if my opinion is not wanted, but I do agree they could use a change. Mostly because their scouting abilities are too good! I think they should not see enemy units. And there should be a system of promotions where you can slowly build them up to level where they can sea things like that. Like you can give them ability to spy on units, or to examine city. And a different promotion to give them better mission options. Also while in enemy territory, they should sue up espionage points per turn.
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Post by redmelkin on Aug 13, 2007 11:46:17 GMT -5
You're slow to adapt. The sentry net is history. Get over it.
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Aug 14, 2007 2:42:14 GMT -5
Sorry to chime in on this subject, if my opinion is not wanted, but I do agree they could use a change. Mostly because their scouting abilities are too good! I think they should not see enemy units. And there should be a system of promotions where you can slowly build them up to level where they can sea things like that. Like you can give them ability to spy on units, or to examine city. And a different promotion to give them better mission options. Also while in enemy territory, they should sue up espionage points per turn. Very good suggestions. I think this is the main problem with spies as well. Would be nice to fix it. And fix christo redentor aswell while at it.
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Post by cryptococcus on Aug 14, 2007 9:38:22 GMT -5
I don't know what this christo redenor guy did to you Red, but I sure hope they catch him fast and lock him up for a long time
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Post by icecube on Sept 11, 2007 21:29:13 GMT -5
hi after catapults that are fixed spies are best invention in ancient era ever ! i dont know how to use them ohh well then they are sucks why spies are so great first they are great for guy who is attacking enemy civilization. to find and target soft defense, sometimes there is lock down situation where 2 huge stacks of units face each other and 1 wrong move you could lose war but with spies war and strategy are much greater then ever just use imagination. for defender with spy is much more easy to check wich type units and directions where to position troops. at least we didnt lose anything with spies we just gain more control in war . good things for bts that i like alot 1 obelisk end with astronomy! (we use to skip calendar cause of obelisks) 2 national wonder for a sea city (that gives hammers) 3 greek civilization is more playable now with phalanx 4 traits leaders UU UB is very balanced ( unrestricted for noobs ) 5 donut map very good ( i wish there is more maps for mp) 6 units got different outfits africa, asia, eruopa, mid east, south america we just need now better world map for long world game 7 did i mention catapults well didnt see any huge stack of catapults (just catapults) mostly stacks are mixed very good job. 8 world events add lots of fun very cool idea . 9 apostolic palace. just the idea that you vote for something that some resolutions bring nations together or divide them voting for world leaders, spy, cold war, resolutions etc. makes FFA games awesome thing . Teamer vs FFA in teamer there is 2 sides allready in war you dont need many things that are part of this game but in ffa you can use all this things that are fun and cool. bye
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Post by tommynt on Sept 12, 2007 2:46:04 GMT -5
spies make game boring - even harder to do surprise attacks is surly not what we did need.
I still think that main problem are the artists and huge borders with em - a ban of artists in ladder games d make games less predictable
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Post by TheClash on Sept 12, 2007 6:29:03 GMT -5
Spyes are like woumans... I luve them both rofl Lestat, hope you dont ban woumen too now
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Post by TheClash on Sept 12, 2007 6:39:24 GMT -5
A question:
In the German book delivered with the DVD, you can read on page 13 (headline "Spy") that there should be a mission : " Kill a spy close to you ".
Reading in next headline "Missions" then, this mission isnt mentioned anymore. Did somebody ever used that KILL SPY mission ??
In addition it is mentioned in section " Mission " that there should be a passive mission called " Opponent spy couldnt cross your border ". Did somebody ever used this one ? I never saw this passive mission in the mission window !!!!
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Post by venceslas on Sept 12, 2007 6:58:01 GMT -5
In advanced era, they may help to attack.
chris.
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grilla
Worker
CCCAC Representative
Have a banana!
Posts: 165
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Post by grilla on Sept 12, 2007 8:30:19 GMT -5
They suck how? you actually need to spend some resources to see another players power grph? you actually cant get a stack into another players area for a surprise attack? Oh well, thats the way the real world is too.
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Post by Bantams on Sept 12, 2007 8:52:55 GMT -5
Spies are great Like woumans Are Great you Just need to Know How to use them
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redphoenix
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 253
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Post by redphoenix on Sept 12, 2007 13:45:40 GMT -5
They suck how? you actually need to spend some resources to see another players power grph? you actually cant get a stack into another players area for a surprise attack? Oh well, thats the way the real world is too. Bad thing is some other things here don't work exactly like real world though Combat should be all units together fighting, except maybe reserves. plus ranged units should be bombarding all the time, especially before combat. And they should suck when enemy gets close to them. And they should have advantage from high ground. As it is, and some other things..., well I'll end here
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Post by Lestat on Sept 12, 2007 15:14:15 GMT -5
Spyes are like woumans... I luve them both rofl Lestat, hope you dont ban woumen too now As u see this is post when BTS come out at 31 july. Now things are changed as we are changed in real life to. If we will not changed we will be slowed.
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Post by Lestat on Sept 12, 2007 15:15:59 GMT -5
Spies are great Like woumans Are Great you Just need to Know How to use them Nice adevice from main second ladder account Bantams which is for bulding mine stats better.
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Post by levgree on Oct 30, 2007 20:51:26 GMT -5
Perhaps spies shouldn't see military units. When they explore fog of war is still there for them.
Then perhaps a mission can be done to see military movements in the area.
Militaries make efforts to hide their movements, so them being seen shouldn't be so automatic. Spies could discover the movements, but they should have to take extra effort to do so.
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Post by MookieNJ on Oct 30, 2007 21:10:39 GMT -5
They suck how? you actually need to spend some resources to see another players power grph? you actually cant get a stack into another players area for a surprise attack? Oh well, thats the way the real world is too. This is not the real world, it's a strategy video game. When much of the strategy is removed by a super unit, the game loses a lot of fun.
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Post by levgree on Oct 31, 2007 0:32:06 GMT -5
to be honest, I've losing faith in Civ4s potential for multiplayer. It seems the game is designed more for single player, for beating up on unintelligent AI's. You are given a variety of powerful tools to do so... and it is fun using them.
In multiplayer though, strategy is seriously diminished. There are so many tweaks that could've been made to make human-vs-human combat more intriguing.
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Post by 9iron9 on Oct 31, 2007 5:46:20 GMT -5
A question: In the German book delivered with the DVD, you can read on page 13 (headline "Spy") that there should be a mission : " Kill a spy close to you ". Reading in next headline "Missions" then, this mission isnt mentioned anymore. Did somebody ever used that KILL SPY mission ?? In addition it is mentioned in section " Mission " that there should be a passive mission called " Opponent spy couldnt cross your border ". Did somebody ever used this one ? I never saw this passive mission in the mission window !!!! is same for EU spies, they cannot cross border unless go through customs...... however, if ur a bulgarian / kosovan / or from a deprived european country u are free to wonder around enemy land and sometimes even get a free house and benefits. this works especially well if you plan to spy in england. on another note if it is tht easy to stop spies coming into your land maybe its an overseen tactic and spies are usuable afterall.
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Post by zzZhenon on Nov 2, 2007 17:35:33 GMT -5
IMHO it's not spies.... it's the whole extremely defense oriented system. Now we have to play Start Separated Ancient teamers b/c it's impossible to kill in later eras due to the catapult nerfs. The only way to kill now is with 2-move units like knights and even then spies make it even harder, so it's just icing on the cake One restriction on spies I would like, would be to reduce the number you are allowed to have. Maybe like 3 spies.... or an option to disable spies altogether. But of course we've suggested all of these things as well as the overnerf of catapults but........ I feel like it's pointless to complain anymore at this point.... MY SOLUTION: It's easy to defend against an attack if you have a sentry net. So since spies basically give you an unkillable sentry (in neutral territory), you have to counterbalance that in some way. Like I said before, I don't believe the issue is with spies in general but with the tipping of the combat scale more toward defense than it already was. What's the solution? reduce cultural defense? instead of 20% --> 40% --> 60% etc, maybe 10% --> 20% -->30% ?? That would empower walls and help solve our overnerfing of catapults and will in effect nerf Spies. Though again, I still think we should be able to cap the # of spies you can build per turn or turn it off entirely in the staging room
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