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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 30, 2008 14:26:03 GMT -5
Thanks for takin' the bait, TGS. (Hooks the fish) TGS said: So, you're saying that if we love America, we should just shut up and do whatever the corporate world says is right? We should ignore the scientific evidence of what excessive use of fossil fuels is doing to the planet, and revel in our American-ness? We should agree that wars for the enrichment of the oil companies is a good thing because W. and Cheney (both heavily involved in the oil companies that benefit) tell you it is? We should believe them when they tell us that we're safer from foreign terrorism while they're busy supporting their cause financially and stimulating their recruitment? Wow, guess I must hate America because I think these clowns are short-sighted hypocrites. (reels the fishy in) I said: TGS said: Well, lets see... Do you define W. and Cheney as "Patriotic Conservatives"? Because both of them have actively enriched the oil cartels and Middle Eastern monarchys, who in turn actively fund the Wahhabi mosques, who in turn actively train Islamic terrorists, and spread the mindset that believes the western world should burn. So, if your definition of "Patriotic Conservative" is the current executive branch, I'll defitely say that these "patriotic Americans" are much more likely to assist islamic terrorists. Maybe you should define "Patriot" in another thread, TGS. I said: TGS said: (fishy jumps outta the water and does a little dance) Wow, so, using our American right of freedom of speech to question the aministration and promote solutions that are better makes us America haters? So, when Clinton was in office and all those conservatives were questioning American policies, were they America haters then? Does who hates America switch every few years when the political climate changes? Well, since you'll likely be faced with a "liberal" president, and "liberal" congress next year, you should be prepared to hate America. Sorry, TGS, I know you didnt want to hate America, but by your standards, you'll have to. I said: TGS said: So, first, TGS, there are remarkably few typos and mis-spelled words in that last paragraph. Where did you cut and paste it from? Please give Cicero his due when you palgiarize him. (Reels fishy onto the boat and grabs the club) Second, I completely agree with Cicero there. I think it's important to remember who the true traitors are, though. I think the a$$es who fund our enemies are the true traitors. They practice a Machiavellian style of international and domestic politics, keeping our enemies prominent and funded, keeping our population in fear, and trying to characterize anyone who sees the falseness of their moves as being the enemy. I'm not a sheep willing to blindly follow a shepherd when he instructs the flock to jump off a cliff. America is MORE RESPECTED when its politics are transparent. America is STRONGER when its government is truthful. America is WISER when it sees the long term ramifications of the actions of its government. (grabs a club and brains the fishy) I said: TGS said: Its good when we can agree!
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Post by zoolander757 on Jan 30, 2008 14:28:48 GMT -5
Well to the illiteracy comment: It depends how you define illiteracy. If you want to count people in the U.S. who can actually read words and write then, 99% of Americans can read words and write. But as comprehension goes and being able to hold a job that number goes up to about 20% (for adults). So that information isn't completely reliable when compared to other countries standards (which deyreepher has also pointed out that America includes its mentally challenged as other countries do not). If we go by the United Nations standards of literacy the US has an illiterate rate of a little over 1 %. Which puts us near the top. Now take Greece for example, Greece's population has a illiterate rate of 2.3%. Not to mention 98% of Greece is native and has a 1% immigration population. The US population on the other hand is 12.5%. It's a little tough for people to be literate in another language. Now if you want to comment on our education system thats a different issue which I can further indulge. Now the comment of the Jail system: I don't know what the real question or statement was implying about our inmate population. Whether we waste lots of money on the prison system, we are too strict on laws, or if we are very violent? Well in any case I'll give my information on that. Yes its true we by far have the most prisoners. We spend 35 billion dollars to imprison people. Most countries, if any, could not afford to imprison there people as the US does. If our gnp and budget was more average who knows if it would be this way. So other countries find other alternatives. Now as violent prisoners go, its not near as bad as it seems. 751 per 100,000 people are in prison in the U.S (or 2.25 million total). 148 per 100,000 for England (only an example not the next highest). Now 2/3 of our populace is considered non-violent. So you can do the math. Not terrible but still an issue. The Right to Vote: Once your sentenced is served your right to vote is automatically reinstated. Its not a lifetime ban. Also you have to be convicted of a felony. So if you go to jail for an unpaid ticket then guess what, you can still vote. And if you prison sentence was one day, you could vote the next. So try not to just jump on a bandwagon and shout something out that isn't true. But you have to remember how the US works. Everyone who is a citizen has a right to vote and the freedom to do what they want. But for all actions there are consequences good or bad. Whether you agree to something or not, you know the rules and laws. The government does not take away a persons rights for no reason but as a consequence. Largest Income Gap between rich and poor: Well I would expect a country that makes up for over a third of the worlds gnp to have a large gap between the rich and poor. Lets think about this.... Bill Gates 56 billion dollars compared to the about 7,000 dollar poverty level. I would agree with that being one hell of a gap. So whats your point? Of all our problems, this isn't that bad. Now there are 432 billionaires in the US compared to 55 in Germany for the next highest. I think that could contribute to the large gap, what do you think? And one last thing, its a hard problem to fix when its a capitalist society and not socialist. The world doesnt go both ways. We cant have all the benefits of capitalism and not have this problem. Most armed robberies and murders / population. Well, the US is not number one in murders it is 36 th. But yes it is high for developed countries. For burglaries, again we are not number one. Notable countries ahead are the UK and Spain and others in the neighborhood are Australia and the Netherlands. And yes is it tragic about kids bringing guns to school but just because you know about Columbine and Virginia Tech doesn't mean every school has this problem. Its very rare and there is only a hand full of cases of something like this happening. I would be curious to see how many events like this has happen in other countries that we just don't hear about. Of course you heard about it, we are the US. Everyone hears everything about us. Now you brought up Michael Moore and how we should listen to him. Sure its great to even listen to people like Bush so that you can critically think, compare and use this knowledge to make your own decision instead of being fed them. But if you want to live by Michael Moore and what he has to say then you should eat your words about brain washing. He is a master manipulator. He brings up some valid points but come on. If you cant see behind his motives of self gain and agenda than you're crazy. He is an extreme left, not the answer to an extreme right. And for facts, I actually spent time at my colleges library researching these statistics so that they would be accurate and not just me saying things I've heard. Another thing, come on guys. Stop bashing liberals and conservatives. All this does is push the country more divided. Its ridiculous. If you ask me which one I am, I'll tell you I'm American and will vote for whoever I think will be best for the country. And please explain to me how Al Qaeda didn't organize and execute what happened in 9/11 and who your source is that is much more reliable then pretty much most of the world. And no I dont think the US is perfect but these are some issues I hear a lot that I feel are just shouted out too much and wanted to give my shout out.
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Post by whiplash on Jan 30, 2008 15:16:27 GMT -5
TBS said:
We should agree that wars for the enrichment of the oil companies is a good thing because W. and Cheney (both heavily involved in the oil companies that benefit) tell you it is? We should believe them when they tell us that we're safer from foreign terrorism while they're busy supporting their cause financially and stimulating their recruitment?
This popular sentiment among the Left is a perfect example of demonization. They pound and pound over and over how Cheney and Bush are just fattening the wallets of their oil buddies.
Call me naive; but I don't think GWB needs to emperil the security of the nation in order to do that. There are a kazillion ways for the President of the United States to help his friends.
As to Cheney, you say he is heavily involved in the oil industry. Just how heavily involved?
Cheney began his political career as a congressional interm in 1969. That's 39 years ago. He won a congressional seat representing Wyoming and was reelected five times. He served in administrative capacities under Nixon and Ford and was the Secretary of Defense in the Bush Sr. cabinet.
With the election of Clinton in 1993 Cheney went to the private sector (not likely Bill would give him any kind of government job). Cheney was CEO of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000. BY THE WAY, HALLIBURTON IS NOT AN OIL COMPANY. Before that he spent a few years at the American Enterprise Institute.
The bottom line is that Dich Cheney spent 34 years in public service and only 5 in the private sector. I'm counting his two years with the American Enterprise Institute as "public". Upon leaving Halliburton to return as Vice President Cheney's investments in Haliburton were put into a fixed income trust. Cheney doesn't earn a dime from anything involving Halliburton.
RICHARD CHENEY IS NOT HEAVILY INVOLVED IN THE OIL INDUSTRY.
But the Lib's have done a great job demonizing him so that most dumbbells think he is tied to the oil industry.
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 30, 2008 15:47:19 GMT -5
Halliburton is not an oil company? Are you joking, Whip? www.halliburton.com/That is their official website, their WHOLE operation is in creating infrastructure for oilfields, from extraction to processing. How can that possibly be considered not part of the oil industry? Richard (why the hell does it censor dlck, so lame.) Cheney made well over 100 million dollars as CEO of Halliburton. Im not dogging him for making money, that's great, and I applaud him for that. But, how can you say he has no ties to the oil industry, when that's the exact industry in which he made his personal fortune? How can you say he has no ties to the oil industry when he thinks its ok to have private, undisclosed meetings with lobbyists from the oil inustry when creating his energy policy? Denial is a phase. Please move on to acceptance.
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Post by whiplash on Jan 30, 2008 16:11:36 GMT -5
Halliburton is not an "oil company" in the sense that Exxon, Chevron, and Shell are.
They are an energy services company. They own no wells, they don't refine, they don't sell petroleum products.
Now think about the economics of the situation and the insanity of the Lefty position.
The Lefty position is that GWB started the war to help his oil buddies, including Halliburton. By doing this he keeps oil flowing out of the middle-east.
THE BEST DAMN THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO HALLIBURTON IS THAT THE OIL FROM THE MIDDLE-EAST IS CUT OFF!!!!!!! This would mean more exploration, more drilling, more equipment, more refineries; there would be a huge demand for everything Halliburton does.
This would also be great for Exxon, Mobil, and Shell. With the oil cut off the price of their products would skyrocket. This is a commodity industry; profits are a function of cost.
Yes, he made megabucks at Halliburton; but that's history. He has had no ties since leaving there. He could thumb his nose at them. But the bigger point is the aforementioned; no invasion of Iraq would be BETTER for Halliburton.
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 30, 2008 16:16:45 GMT -5
Whip said:
On this note as well, what, in Cheney's resume qualifies him to be CEO of the world's largest oil infrastructure company? Is it his wealth of experience in the oil industry? Is it his wealth of experience running a business? Or is it his wealth of political connections forged over nearly 40 years of public service? Why are politicians so closely involved with the oil industry, and why is the oil industry so involved with politicians?
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Post by whiplash on Jan 30, 2008 16:18:11 GMT -5
He's a fuggin genius.
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 30, 2008 16:37:00 GMT -5
Now think about the economics of the situation and the insanity of the Lefty position. The Lefty position is that GWB started the war to help his oil buddies, including Halliburton. By doing this he keeps oil flowing out of the middle-east. THE BEST DAMN THING THAT COULD HAPPEN TO HALLIBURTON IS THAT THE OIL FROM THE MIDDLE-EAST IS CUT OFF!!!!!!! This would mean more exploration, more drilling, more equipment, more refineries; there would be a huge demand for everything Halliburton does. This would also be great for Exxon, Mobil, and Shell. With the oil cut off the price of their products would skyrocket. This is a commodity industry; profits are a function of cost. Yes, he made megabucks at Halliburton; but that's history. He has had no ties since leaving there. He could thumb his nose at them. But the bigger point is the aforementioned; no invasion of Iraq would be BETTER for Halliburton. You think Halliburton would do better than a 6 Billion dollar, no bid contract if they had to do business here in America with private parties and competition, rather than just being awarded the contract by the executive branch of the US government with no competition and no oversight? And all this time I thought you were a capitalist..
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Post by whiplash on Jan 30, 2008 17:16:15 GMT -5
Oh, so you think the war was started so that Halliburton could be hired to do the reconstruction? I thought it was to have peace and stability in the middle-east. I thought it was to unseat a tyrant who invaded two of his neighbor countries and killed hundreds of thousands of people. I guess you're just smarter than me.
What makes you think there was no competition and no oversight?
Believe me the worst customer on Earth is the US Government.
I have plenty of personal experience in no-bid goverment contract work. The reason it's no-bid is because the scope cannot be precisely defined. It's not like buying a fleet of automobiles.
There usually is competition. Companies are selected based upon their demonstrated abilities to get the job done. The contracts are usually cost plus fixed fee. That means the contractor is reimbursed for his direct cost and his overhead and receives a fixed fee even if the scope of the job increases. The fixed fee is usually tiny compared to the profits in private sector contract work. The oversight is horrendous. There are federal bean counters crawling over everything. The volumes of procurement regulations can fill a freight car. Everything is audited.
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 30, 2008 18:39:47 GMT -5
I thought it was because Iraq had WMD's, I thought it was because Saddam had ties to Al Qeada, I thought it was to liberate the Iraqi people, I thought it was because we were fulfilling the UN mandate, I thought it was because we were promoting democracy.. yada yada yada. The fact is, the goal and the reasoning changed weekly. And Iraq's use of chemical weapons the enthnic kurds happened well before the gulf war in 1991, as did Iraq's war with Iran (which we supported Iraq in, and then supported Iran as well.) Iraq attacked Iran with our blessing, so lets not try to use that as a justification. Iraq attacked Kuwait without our blessing, and we already fought a war for that one over a decade before. The fact is, Iraq had a lot more to fear from it's neighbors by 2003 than they had to fear from Iraq. Iraq's military was in shambles, and its economy was crippled badly from sanctions imposed on it since 1992. If we went to war in Iraq because of altruistic reasons, and to save the Iraqi people and the middle east, why are we not involved in the Sudan? Why are we not involved in the dozens of countries that are committing ethnic cleansing and genocide in North Africa and other parts of the world? If they had a resource that we needed, we would be there. The fact is, it was hurting the world economy to not have Iraqi oil on the market, and available to consumers, both American and other countries, that's why we went to war. Our economy runs on black gold, and black gold will control us until we take the ballsy decision to make a change. C'mon, whip, I expect better from you. google the words "no bid contracts in iraq", then google the words "halliburton oversight". There are literally thousands of articles about how halliburton was given uncontested contracts for Iraq, and how the lack of oversight led to hundreds of millions of dollars worth of ficticious billing. I do believe you. I've wrangled with the IRS three out of the four years I've been in business, and I have an enrolled agent who handles my taxes and does very clearly and very squarely. She also costs me $200 an hour, which the IRS doesn't pay back after she spends 3-4 hours showing them that they're wrong. If the rest of the bloated beauracracy functions as poorly as the IRS does, it doesnt surprise me that they are a terrible customer. However, that same beauracracy has rules that say that multiple bids are required before spending taxpayer money. I like that rule. This is probably the ideal, and how government normally functions, and how its supposed to function according to their rules. This is not how Iraq has been handled.
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Post by whiplash on Jan 30, 2008 19:47:18 GMT -5
I think this will be my last post on the topic.
Do I think there is no corruption in government? NO Do I think there are no sweet deals for "friends"? NO Do I think there is no bending of the truth to propogandize the American people? NO
But I am not so cynical so as to believe that these things would sink to the level of the US going to war at the cost of XXX billions of dollars and the cost of American lives.
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Post by gitbliss on Jan 31, 2008 6:09:43 GMT -5
You have the biggest percentage of illiterate people in the Western wolrd by far.Gitbliss, The US literacy rate is higher than many European countries, including Greece. 21 United Kingdom 99.0 [6] 21 United States 99.0 [7] 35 Tonga 98.9 36 Azerbaijan 98.8 36 Turkmenistan 98.8 38 Albania 98.7 38 Kyrgyzstan 98.7 38 Samoa 98.7 41 Trinidad and Tobago 98.6 42 Italy 98.5 43 Romania 98.4 [1] 44 Bulgaria 98.2 45 Croatia 98.1 46 Austria 98.0 47 South Korea 97.9 48 Greece 97.8 48 Mongolia 97.8 50 Spain 97.7 You are long on opinion and short on facts. If you think the wikipedia is more reliable than Michael Moore, I would have to disagree. As you might know the Wikipedia has no central editing team and basically is an open source project with limited to none quality control. In regards to the illiteracy, I was wrong you are not last you are among the last. But the real problem is not illiterate people, it is people not finishing secondary education, unfortunatelly I didi not find any solid data on the web. It seems here you are the one long on opinion and short of facts. This article sums it up and among the various things that were wrong about Florida elections in 2000, it says about the lists as well using plenty of reference. www.commondreams.org/views/111300-106.htmI am surprised however that you are not aware of this as in Europe it was all over the news and numerous documentaries have been done about it!!! It seems that it was buried in the states. This is even easier to prove!! The link below is a US department of Justice report on Felonies for 1996. www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fsus96.pdfIf you look in the pdf you will see that aout of 1.000.000 convicted felons 136.000 were for drugs possesion....it has a variety of crimes but has a staggering 156.000 convicted felons listed as other crimes which are difined as "Composed of nonviolent offenses such as receiving stolen property and immigration offenses."!!! The article below explains even further and points out that every state is different, and also mentions that "In a number of states, ex-offenders can be denied the right to vote for minor crimes or even for crimes for which they served no prison time" www.wsws.org/articles/2000/nov2000/vote-n08.shtml
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Post by whiplash on Jan 31, 2008 7:04:23 GMT -5
I'm not going to give any credence to things posted on commondream.org or the World Socialist Web Site.
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Post by gitbliss on Jan 31, 2008 7:27:34 GMT -5
I'm not going to give any credence to things posted on commondream.org or the World Socialist Web Site. How will you learn about such stuff if you don't read alternative media? Regarding the socialist web site, don't confuse socialism with communism. Half European countries are being run by socialist parties.
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Post by whiplash on Jan 31, 2008 10:41:14 GMT -5
Here are some excerpts from their site. Tell me these guys are not Communists!
As great events, from financial crises to eruptions of militarism and war, break up the present state of class relations, the WSWS will provide a political orientation for the growing ranks of working people thrown into struggle.
The World Socialist Web Site insists, however, that the success of these struggles is inseparable from the growth in the influence of a socialist political movement guided by a Marxist world outlook.
The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system.
The International Committee of the Fourth International intends to use this technology as a tool for the liberation of the working people and oppressed all over the world.
The World Socialist Web Site arises on the basis of a powerful political history. It represents the historical continuity of the political and theoretical struggle initiated by Leon Trotsky in 1923 ...
Perhaps you would prefer that I lable them "Marxist" rather than "Communist". They apparently wear that lable proudly.
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Post by whiplash on Jan 31, 2008 11:31:00 GMT -5
Getting back to the crime statistics:
I talked to a friend of mine who is an Assistant District Attorney here. He told me that, by far, most posession convictions are in connection with other crimes. Example is a rapist is caught and happens to also have cocaine on him when arrested would have the felony posession charge tacked on.
He also referred me to the following:
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Possession of a Controlled Substance in Wisconsin - Penalties
Substance Offense Maximum Penalty
Marijuana 1st (Misdemeanor) 6 months in Jail / $1000 fine Marijuana 2nd (Felony) 3 1/2 years, $10,000
Cocaine 1st (Misdemeanor) 1 year in Jail, $5000 fine Cocaine 2nd (Felony) 3 1/2 years, $10,000
Methamphetamine 1st (Misdemeanor) 1 year in Jail, $5000 fine Methamphetamine 2nd (Felony) 3 1/2 years, $10,000
LSD (Acid) 1st (Misdemeanor) 1 year in Jail, $5000 fine LSD (Acid) 2nd (Felony) 3 1/2 years, $10,000
Heroin Felony 3 1/2 years, $10,000
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Note that with the exception of heroin it takes a second offense to be convicted for a felony.
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marr
Worker
Posts: 169
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Post by marr on Jan 31, 2008 11:33:31 GMT -5
Awesome thread, loved reading this stuff, good points by all:)
I will keep this so very simple and so very to the point.
Whip Said
" Lobbyists. Dare we open that can of worms? Example: "Brownie" = Fema = Joe Allbaugh
I should expand on this I suppose. Alot of contracts are 'awarded' because of succesful lobbying. The old adage, 'its not what you know...'
Anyways, not the fairest of systems and its rampant in America.
(Although I don't hate America)
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 31, 2008 12:45:15 GMT -5
gitbliss said:
Michael Moore is nothing more than a fat, loudmouth spin-doctor, just like Rush Limbaugh, Tom Lykus, Sean Hannety, etc. These guys are media-wh0res that distort truth for your entertainment. Please don't use any "facts" put forth by these guys. If you want to quote a media figure, go for someone like Lou Dobbs, who at least sticks to real facts and not spin-doctored ones.
Wikipedia, though it is an open source project, has options for any user to flag a post for innacuracy, and site their reasons. These spin-doctors do not. They are in charge of their own quality control, which makes it that much less quality, and that much less controlled.
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Post by thegreatsatan on Feb 1, 2008 0:09:01 GMT -5
Wow, lotsa action up in here. I missed a couple days and a storm of post hits First, The method being used to measure the murder rate is flaud. You cannot compare the murder rate of a modern industrial country like America, to a country like JoeBlackistan. The factors effecting the odds on weather an individual will partake in criminal action is baced on the enviromental factors. You most compare modern industrial countrys to other modern industrial countrys of similar size. The murder rate of a country with 30 million people, even if population dencity is the same, will have lower rates then a country with 300 million.
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Post by gitbliss on Feb 1, 2008 4:31:15 GMT -5
Here are some excerpts from their site. Tell me these guys are not Communists! As great events, from financial crises to eruptions of militarism and war, break up the present state of class relations, the WSWS will provide a political orientation for the growing ranks of working people thrown into struggle.
The World Socialist Web Site insists, however, that the success of these struggles is inseparable from the growth in the influence of a socialist political movement guided by a Marxist world outlook.
The standpoint of this web site is one of revolutionary opposition to the capitalist market system.
The International Committee of the Fourth International intends to use this technology as a tool for the liberation of the working people and oppressed all over the world.
The World Socialist Web Site arises on the basis of a powerful political history. It represents the historical continuity of the political and theoretical struggle initiated by Leon Trotsky in 1923 ...Perhaps you would prefer that I lable them "Marxist" rather than "Communist". They apparently wear that lable proudly. You got a point here..these guys look like ex commies. But I got this site from a google search and picked it randomly among many others saying the same thing on the deprival of voting rights. Here are some other examples. www.aclu.org/votingrights/exoffenders/index.htmlseattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/277513_sentencing14.htmlwww.aclu.org/votingrights/gen/21790prs20051121.htmlwww.thirdworldtraveler.com/Election_Reform/Ex-Felons_Denied_Vote.htmlAnyway the articles are countless on the web....
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