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Post by gitbliss on Jan 25, 2008 4:29:09 GMT -5
Thats kinda weak gitblis. Why don't you say, "I'm gitblis and I believe "x" because of "y' and "z". " Then you make statements like this one. and I repond to you with... challanging what you said, you need to back up your original satement. Not tell me I need to go read some artical and it will all make sence after that. Why can't you just make the arguement the artical makes? Even better would be to defend your original statements. If your not gunna stand by what you said and defend it. Don't say nothing. I'll just assume you concede when you don't back yourself up. TGS you are talking about 1.000 years ago and at the same time talk about weak statements? The US did not exist 1.000 years ago, who cares what happened 1.000 years ago. I talk about the last 50 - 60 years because that is when the US started getting involved in foreign countries' internal affairs and ultimately created this mess. The US is responsible for 90% of the dictatorships on this planet in the last 50 years, including the one at my country Greece 35 years ago (and we are not arabs, but the US has and is supporting our neighbours that are Arabs). Same with Kosovo, the US is supporting the small muslim minority in the area and has even gone to war with Serbia to support this minority. The way you are going in a few years we will see Christian suicide bombers joining the muslim efforts. Bottom line is that The US is interested only at its own pocket and interest, religion and ethics has nothing to do with it. There is not a single country in the world, take way Canada and Australia maybe, that actually agrees with the way the US has been behaving and is not extremely worried about the situation you have created. Even in countries like the UK and Spain, that helped you to get a piece of the pie, public opinion is opposed. This post is already getting long and I feel we will be saying more here...so TBC
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 25, 2008 12:00:07 GMT -5
What they forgot to mention Whip, is that there is nothing new in that article, no new facts or reveletions, it is just information already published accross a range of media and they are just putting it all together using a new tool. I also find very funny the quote "the extreme leftist George Soros". It seems the US is back in the cold war days where anyone challenging what Bush is doing is either a terrorist or an extreme leftist. This has been a republican tactic for 60 years, gitbliss. The moment you question their methodology, they question your patriotism. It's soooo much easier than actually defending their actions. Clinton had an affair with a chubby girl, and lied about it, he got impeached. Bush lied to the world to bring the world to war, and if you call him on it, you must be an extreme leftist or terrorist. That's the new measure.
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 25, 2008 12:07:54 GMT -5
That article is funny as hell, whip. Here's a quote from it.. "First, few people now think Saddam had WMDs, of course. But nearly everyone thought he had them before we went into Iraq -- including the leadership of every nation on the planet as well as Saddam's own generals. So, it was not a "lie" if it was commonly thought to be true by nearly every head of state in the world. That Saddam had WMDs may have been a mistaken notion, but it was not a lie before it was known for sure! " Do you remember the head of the UN inspection team telling the world "There is no evidence of WMD's in Iraq" . Do you remember him telling the world the US intelligence was wrong? This was the guy who's job it was to inspect, and he kept telling everybody "ok, im inspecting, and there's nothing here." Do you remember how many governments agreed with the UN inspector when he said there were no WMD's in Iraq? Do you still eat "Freedom Fries" with your burgers? Its so much easier to question the patriotism of everybody around you than to face the truth.
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Post by whiplash on Jan 25, 2008 12:47:48 GMT -5
The problem is that the inspectors never had full, unresticted access.
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Post by thegreatsatan on Jan 25, 2008 12:57:12 GMT -5
Thats kinda weak gitblis. Why don't you say, "I'm gitblis and I believe "x" because of "y' and "z". " Then you make statements like this one. and I repond to you with... challanging what you said, you need to back up your original satement. Not tell me I need to go read some artical and it will all make sence after that. Why can't you just make the arguement the artical makes? Even better would be to defend your original statements. If your not gunna stand by what you said and defend it. Don't say nothing. I'll just assume you concede when you don't back yourself up. TGS you are talking about 1.000 years ago and at the same time talk about weak statements? The US did not exist 1.000 years ago, who cares what happened 1.000 years ago. I talk about the last 50 - 60 years because that is when the US started getting involved in foreign countries' internal affairs and ultimately created this mess. The US is responsible for 90% of the dictatorships on this planet in the last 50 years, including the one at my country Greece 35 years ago (and we are not arabs, but the US has and is supporting our neighbours that are Arabs). Same with Kosovo, the US is supporting the small muslim minority in the area and has even gone to war with Serbia to support this minority. The way you are going in a few years we will see Christian suicide bombers joining the muslim efforts. Bottom line is that The US is interested only at its own pocket and interest, religion and ethics has nothing to do with it. There is not a single country in the world, take way Canada and Australia maybe, that actually agrees with the way the US has been behaving and is not extremely worried about the situation you have created. Even in countries like the UK and Spain, that helped you to get a piece of the pie, public opinion is opposed. This post is already getting long and I feel we will be saying more here...so TBC ok, gj gib. You backed up 1 of your statement. I guess I was right on the others. I'll back up my retort. The hate of islam vs the west is not because we set up dictatorships. It goes way back, more then 50 years. They hate america because they are taught to hate jews and christians. Before there was an america to hate, the islams hated europe. They tried to concor it a couple times. And if all these countrys hate what america is doing so much, why don't they do something about it? Why is it that all they do is wine? Could it be because they have no military? Or there ecconomy is propted up by america?
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Post by thegreatsatan on Jan 25, 2008 13:00:01 GMT -5
The problem is that the inspectors never had full, unresticted access. whip, you forgot to challenge there patriotism
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Post by TheBadSeed on Jan 25, 2008 13:55:10 GMT -5
The problem is that the inspectors never had full, unresticted access. I'd have to say the problem was much more that the Bush administration spent all the time and effort creating a battle strategy for Iraq, beginning in 2000, and they hated to see it go to waste. Do you remember that it wasnt Saddam Hussein that kicked out the inspectors in 2003? It was W. He couldnt let the inspectors continue to find nothing, that would have swayed public opinion away from attacking Iraq before they could get started.
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marr
Worker
Posts: 169
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Post by marr on Jan 25, 2008 20:00:34 GMT -5
I do TBS, I also recal Kafi Anon saying the war was illigal. An illigal war and it was said before America Invaded. One of the main reasons Canada did not get invloved in that war as we respect international law.
@ TGS - Patriotism or not, Iraq did not have WMD's. Thats the bottom line, inspections or not. Doesn't matter if they could be hid, doesn't matter if they had tons of time to hide a few cargo containers in a big sea of desert. None were found. If anyone knew of the wherabouts of a cargo container of nuke material or WMD's, your telling me that stuff wouldn't be traced, tracked and reconed (With all our tech in this day and age?)
Doesn't matter what Saddam did in his country, what lotto tickets he was passing out; FACT, the war in Iraq was and is still Illigal under international law.
@ Git - Last I looked Greece is a democracy. Don't blame the US for any president / dictator in this world now. The only people responsible for the person / government who leads them is the people. If the people don't like it, the people have the power to make change.
Lucky for us, Canada has a No Confidence clause. We don't like our prime minister; he makes war we don't want; Bam hes gone. That simple.
GG
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Post by DrShot on Jan 25, 2008 23:42:45 GMT -5
Yawn.
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marr
Worker
Posts: 169
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Post by marr on Jan 26, 2008 0:02:02 GMT -5
Yet it merited a reply, must have been a good point.
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Post by DrShot on Jan 26, 2008 0:05:19 GMT -5
I am truely amazed how some people can still say that Iraq has not possed nor used WMD's. This reminds me of the old playground kids that would say something then cover their ears and make loud noises to block out what was being said by others. But, yet again, I shall say not only has Iraq possessed [glow=red,2,300]Weapons of Mass Destruction[/glow] but they have used them. I will show not only what are considered to be WMD's but when and how they were used. First lets look at a favorite source sited by the naysayers, the UN. This is directly from the UN website. I will post a link afterwards, but here is the brief article( i have not edited the content only highlights)... _________________ UN weapons inspectors say archived vials from Iraq pose no immediate threat 30 August 2007 – United Nations weapons inspectors in Iraq archiving their headquarters in New York have discovered vials that may contain a potentially deadly chemical removed from an Iraqi facility 11 years ago, but they said today that the containers are properly secured and pose no immediate threat to the public. The UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) said the relevant packages were being handed over to United States authorities for removal and destruction, and a spokesperson for the [glow=red,2,300]UN said an investigation would soon begin into how the hazardous materials came to be in the Commission’s headquarters.[/glow] [glow=red,2,300]Last Friday[/glow], UNMOVIC staff discovered two small plastic packages with metal and glass containers – ranging in size from small vials to tubes the length of a pen – holding unknown liquid substances, UN spokesperson Marie Okabe told reporters. The find was made during the process of archiving UNMOVIC’s offices in New York, near the UN Headquarters building, as the Commission winds down after the Security Council terminated its mandate in June. Ms. Okabe said an initial probe revealed that the packages were recovered in 1996 from Al Muthanna, [glow=red,2,300]a former Iraqi chemical weapons facility[/glow], [glow=red,2,300] by inspectors with the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM)[/glow], the predecessor of UNMOVIC. Yesterday, however, the relevant inspection report was found, and it contained an inventory of items recovered that shows one of the items [glow=red,2,300]may[/glow] contain phosgene suspended in oil – an old-generation chemical warfare agent. Phosgene is a [glow=red,2,300]chemical weapon[/glow] that was used widely in World War I, and in both its gaseous and liquid forms can be potentially life-threatening, causing the lungs to collapse and damaging the eyes, nose, throat and skin. It is also an industrial chemical that can be used in the production of plastics. The inventory also indicated that the other package contains nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) reference standards in sealed glass tubes. These standards are used to calibrate chemical analytical equipment. Such items would normally be transported directly to laboratories for analysis and not to UNMOVIC or UNSCOM headquarters, and the Commission said it is [glow=red,2,300]unaware of how the materials came to be in New York. [/glow] UNMOVIC chemical weapons experts sealed the packages and placed them in a safe that was then isolated in a secured room at the headquarters. They also tested the environment surrounding the packages and found no concentration of toxic vapours in the air. The Commission has stated that it believes the packages are properly secured and the materials pose no immediate risk or danger to the public, while a subsequent sweep of the entire office revealed no further potentially dangerous materials. UNMOVIC was established by the Security Council in December 1999 to replace UNSCOM and continue the work – begun in 1991 in the aftermath of the war that followed the invasion of Kuwait – [glow=red,2,300]of verifying Iraq’s compliance with its obligations to be rid of weapons of mass destruction[/glow] , whether chemical, biological or long-range missiles. It was also tasked with ensuring that Iraq did not reacquire these weapons. __________ www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=23649&Cr=weapons&Cr1=chemical&Kw1=weapons+of+mass+destruction&Kw2=&Kw3=Not just a little bit naive to believe Saddam that he 'got rid of' his Chemical facilities, wouldn't you think? Funny how they cannot even keep tabs on the vials of what may be deadly (anything) and they show up over a decade later in a most peculiar location. This instills even more confidence in me of the abilities of the UN.
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Post by DrShot on Jan 26, 2008 0:08:13 GMT -5
Yet it merited a reply, must have been a good point. No, this was for how the entire thread has digressed to low level chatter. BTW your a socialist not a liberal or is it the same ?
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Post by zoolander757 on Jan 26, 2008 2:22:23 GMT -5
We should just follow Washington's and Jefferson's foreign policy of isolation and let the rest of the world be. No one appreciates anything we do right, and we will always hear what we do wrong. Yes we screw up and yes we are selfish, but we also do a lot of good and help the world. With that said, I no longer feel enthusiastic about helping other countries until they beg for it (and even then I'll have to think about it).
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capitalistpig
Settler
Those trying to save you from 1984 are leading you into a brave new world.
Posts: 51
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Post by capitalistpig on Feb 1, 2008 19:02:22 GMT -5
It would seem that you are a likely Ron Paul supporter Zoolander. It is very tempting to give in to that kind of thinking. To just say screw it all, and not give a damn what happens throughout the rest of the world. You must recognize however that the world is a very different place today than it was in the late 1700s. When Washington was around, the world was a much bigger place, it could take weeks, or even months to take travel distances that can now be traveled in less than a day. America was a brand new nation, with neither the resources nor the inclination to become involved in foreign affairs. We have learned over the years however that isolationism will not keep the problems of the world from coming to our doorstep. We can either choose to become involved in problems when they are small, or we can sit at home, and ignore the problems of the world as they grow larger until they choose to involve us whether we like it or not. Last but not least is a far less practical reason. I personally believe that sometimes we must become involved simply because it is the right thing to do. There are many who would love to believe that The United States is no longer the worlds lone superpower, the fact is however that a superpower is exactly what we are, and believe it or not, there are none on earth who can match us. 20... or even 10 years from now that dynamic may change, but as for right now, the United States is far and away the worlds most dominant nation, militarily and economically, and with that comes the responsibility to do what is right. Just like Peter Parker's dad said, with great power, comes great responsibility. I am not saying that we are responsible for the well being of the world, but I do believe we should help where we can. We must not become the great provider for all the worlds needs, however that should not keep us from knocking over the local strongmen who make life difficult for millions of people all over the world. A stronger global economy is good for America in the same way that a stronger American economy is good for ALL Americans. "A rising tide lifts all boats" is how Kennedy put it. It is to bad that the Cape Cod Orca of today cannot see some of the wisdom that occasionally graced his family not so long ago.
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Post by whiplash on Feb 4, 2008 7:11:32 GMT -5
You sound like GWB.
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[KC]Bopper
Worker
The Knight Who Says 'Giddy-Up!'
Posts: 136
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Post by [KC]Bopper on Feb 4, 2008 17:54:59 GMT -5
Now now, nobody can sound like GWB until they have learned the correct pronounciation of the word "nucular".
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