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Post by whiplash on May 30, 2006 21:17:13 GMT -5
I totally agree. The games are radically different and few players compete on both on a regular basis. I would like to hear an argument in favor of having virtually the same admin crew for both games. The perceived neglect of the C3C admins caused a huge rift. This could happen again virtually anytime on either ladder. Why continue with the same group (again, I say virtually)? Is Bud Selig the Commissioner of the NFL and MLB? The only Admin that is on both ladders actively is SPM, the other admins are actively supporting just one game, even if there names appear at the top of more than one web page, so defacto C3P and C4P have different admin teams, and this will only continue to be even more true in the future. CS So both ladders really only have half the number of admins as advertised? That's hardly a formula for success in my view.
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Post by MMV on May 30, 2006 21:27:28 GMT -5
this is NOT intended as an insult whip, but we've witnessed both your formula for success and it's results.
Ladder members "make" the ladder, not the admins. It's ALL ladder member's responsibilities to "advertise" for new players (through both our actions and theirs); to set the example to both current and potential ladder members; and to help ANYONE that inquires about the game, ladder player or not.
It's the admins (very tough) job to administrate both the game and this board - our actions either make it easier or tougher for them.
But, that's my opinion and how I see it, I don't expect others to view it the same as I do.
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Post by MMV on May 30, 2006 21:29:35 GMT -5
And DD - sorry to see you leave both as admin AND player.
As a player you were one of the example setters that "make" our ladder. (didn't get to see how you would have been as an admin, but I'm sure it would be no different)
You are a GOOD COMPETITIVE player who always made me play my best, lol!
Sincerely.
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 30, 2006 21:38:37 GMT -5
The only Admin that is on both ladders actively is SPM, the other admins are actively supporting just one game, even if there names appear at the top of more than one web page, so defacto C3P and C4P have different admin teams, and this will only continue to be even more true in the future. CS So both ladders really only have half the number of admins as advertised? That's hardly a formula for success in my view. Half? My math says that there's only two admins other than SPM that appear on both ladders, Magzi and Nealcain, Magzi officially left C3P and has come to be only a C4P admin, she just hasn't had time to remover herself from the C3P list, Nealcain plays mostly C3C but does occasionally play Civ4 and has decided to remain on both lists. This is hardly a critical mass of admins with divided loyalities. And we only provide the leadership and framework for the ladder, as MMV has stated it's the members that will make or break the ladder, there dedication to the games they chose to play is what makes this community. CS
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Post by ironclad on May 31, 2006 0:35:53 GMT -5
whips plays civ ;p?
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Post by zerza on May 31, 2006 1:47:49 GMT -5
Dusty wasn't cut out to be an admin anyway. He actually cares about MP civ, quite a disnomor when lickin fire butts. I have seen little proof elsewhere that anyone actually gives a damn about MP civ, aside from a few "brave' personal emails.
Yes fried, every admin on staff emailed me to say Civ4 is broken as hell, regardless of what you claim. Earn your paycheck another way, quit fuggin over us civvers ! What did civ ever do to you anyways! Cant you please make money killing a different online game?
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 31, 2006 9:26:58 GMT -5
Zerza, you are very close to personal harassment, this will be your only warning from me, your next transgression will earn you a vacation from posting here. Feel free to criticize the game, Firaxis or whatever just don't make personal attacks on other ladder members.
CS
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Post by zerza on May 31, 2006 12:18:52 GMT -5
I'll stop naming names But nothing in there was a personal attack, all business related, which is NOT personal. Business is business. A personal attack would be to call him vulgar names, or say his weenie is small. For whatever reason, friedrich seems to be the multiplayers diplomat to firaxis. Hes going to receive scrutiny when it seems his actions favor firaxis over the multiplayers. To censor the scrutiny is fascist. Hes partly responsible for how firaxis views multiplayer, so hes going to get criticism when he doesn't understand the multiplayers. Again, NOT personal, its business. As long as the multiplayers stay silent then CIV will never get fixed, and the expansion will be the same mess for more money. I find it saddening that the general consensus is to just accept the bugs.
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Post by deyreepher on May 31, 2006 12:56:49 GMT -5
I sort of agree with Zerza in that there need to be some changes, if they want to release an expansion. Perhaps my biggest gripe is the lack of an "official" forum for the game. If you go to the Civ 4 homepage, it's just 1 big add. The links to the forums direct you to either CivFanatics or Apolyton which is just unacceptable. My only recourse to try to get some changes in is to hunt down as many beta testers as possible and have them submit some ideas for changes. On top of that, from what I hear, the multi-player beta testers are just being drowned out by the sheer number of single player beta testers.
It just makes me sad to think that the first 5-6 months of the connection issues of online play may have turned away more people than we think.
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 31, 2006 16:51:21 GMT -5
If you want to critizice Fried as a Firaxis Consultant for any alledged problems you feel he is responsible for, please email Firaxis and/or Take2 public relations/support. Here he is a member of the ladder and will be afforded the same repect under the rules as any other ladder member. This is not censoring, it's protecting peoples right to a harassment free gaming experience. You don't have to call someone a "thingyhead" for it to be considered harassement, making allegations that may or may not be true, even if you consider it "business" is just as much harassment. I hope that is clear enough.
CS
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Post by Canucksoldier on May 31, 2006 16:58:06 GMT -5
I sort of agree with Zerza in that there need to be some changes, if they want to release an expansion. Perhaps my biggest gripe is the lack of an "official" forum for the game. If you go to the Civ 4 homepage, it's just 1 big add. The links to the forums direct you to either CivFanatics or Apolyton which is just unacceptable. My only recourse to try to get some changes in is to hunt down as many beta testers as possible and have them submit some ideas for changes. On top of that, from what I hear, the multi-player beta testers are just being drowned out by the sheer number of single player beta testers. It just makes me sad to think that the first 5-6 months of the connection issues of online play may have turned away more people than we think. I fully agree that MP needs improvements but Fried as a Consultant nor any of the betatesters are responsible for the design or business decisions of Firaxis or Take2. And singling these groups out is not a productive method of conveying your concerns to the game producers/developers. Take2 may not have a forum but Firaxis does read the fan sight forums and Take2 does have support emails/web forms that you can use to directly communicate your concerns. The testers here are MPers first and have always represented the ladder well during development and design, and the game would be much worse for us if this was not the case, but there are limits to what you can effect as a tester unfortunately. CS
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Post by mrgametheory on May 31, 2006 23:38:03 GMT -5
What the f**k is this Civilized Hills 90210 - There is more Drama in this thread than there is on the Fox network. You people need to have a few wanks before you post on these boards in the future
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Post by loki1023 on Jun 1, 2006 1:55:03 GMT -5
Just a simple question to the admins ,but why do you let these guys get to you? they are obviously trying to provoke you into a meaning less battle of wit's ,and I say meaning less because they usualy lack any To Eveyone: Ignore the insults and move on and if you really feel you need a place for name calling leave here and find another community to destroy while the rest of us try to work together to salvage a game we like.
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Post by tommynt on Jun 1, 2006 2:44:14 GMT -5
loki the only reason why the admins care about zerza s statements is that there is some truth in it. It s just a bit differnt from spaming ot saying fk u in lobby or so. The admin in question is or was paid and made several wrong and misleading statements about the game -at different times. Some of these statements possibly made people buy the game.
And somehow I really blame admins that connection issues got worse after patch - most of em are involved in testing and should have fricking figured out that rejoining is f**ked up - or at least force puplishers to get some 1.63 where nothing is changed but connection programming same as in previous patch - this d be a like 2 hour work for a programmer (oh well what do I know about how long it takes) - but basicly going back to old statuas cant be that hard.
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Post by GERMANIA on Jun 1, 2006 7:31:23 GMT -5
loki the only reason why the admins care about zerza s statements is that there is some truth in it. It s just a bit differnt from spaming ot saying fk u in lobby or so. The admin in question is or was paid and made several wrong and misleading statements about the game -at different times. Some of these statements possibly made people buy the game. And somehow I really blame admins that connection issues got worse after patch - most of em are involved in testing and should have fricking figured out that rejoining is f**ked up - or at least force puplishers to get some 1.63 where nothing is changed but connection programming same as in previous patch - this d be a like 2 hour work for a programmer (oh well what do I know about how long it takes) - but basicly going back to old statuas cant be that hard. Well tommy I agree that 1.61 didn't made the MP game better but to say that the admins get paid to say untrue stuff isn't right, No admins get from any one money for his job, and you should know that! And even if they are tester of CIV, doesn't mean you get anything for that! You just get a thx and game for those who tested over years and i don't think you can called that as paid ore ? It isn't the admins fault that the patch is how it is
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Jun 1, 2006 8:06:32 GMT -5
I've always taken the point of view that rather than harangue and complain about a problem, do what you can - however large or small - to try and solve it.
Although I can't (also won't) discuss the details, that's what I've been doing for quite some time now. Unfortunately, it's often very hard to measure success, and harder to prove it, which probably is a fruitless cause anyhow.
Ironically, the one time I attempted to rally support and assistance for helping deal with the issue here on a ladder-wide scale, it turned into another "Let's smear Firaxis" thread. Was it phrased in a deliberate way? Absolutely - for reasons that might have been guessed at, if people consider how I walk two paths. Was it a non-ideal chance at solving the issue? Definitely. There were some stipulations there that were a bit challenging. Hey, y'know what? No, you shouldn't have had to fix the problem. If you wanted a chance to improve things instead of grouse, though, that was it. Glaring at a broken glass on the floor and screaming, "IT'S NOT MY JOB TO CLEAN IT UP," and then getting angry when it cuts you seems a tad odd to me. If you're given the chance, why not do something with it, no matter who started the problem?
Was there a chance that some members of this very thread threw down, stomped on, and cast away?
Absolutely. The art of communication and the art of diplomacy is oftentimes taking what you can get and building on it - not calling it an insult and walking away.
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Jun 1, 2006 8:08:13 GMT -5
Just a simple question to the admins ,but why do you let these guys get to you? they are obviously trying to provoke you into a meaning less battle of wit's ,and I say meaning less because they usualy lack any To Eveyone: Ignore the insults and move on and if you really feel you need a place for name calling leave here and find another community to destroy while the rest of us try to work together to salvage a game we like. I recognized this awhile back and try only to refer to the salient points (however few they may be) and ignore the ...specifics... of who's posting and their tones whenever possible. A "just the facts" approach can help one stay sane in a den of raving lunatics, as it were.
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Post by tommynt on Jun 1, 2006 8:11:28 GMT -5
u talking about this lets fix the bug that dont exist thread u started FP?
It s not true thats it s turned into bad - just not true - zerza posted some crap but said right after that it was off topic so why not just delete this 1 post ..
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Post by deyreepher on Jun 1, 2006 10:13:58 GMT -5
Well, since we got your attention FP....anyway you can use your pull to get them to create a Civ 4 forum on the official website? This is the only game that I've bought in the past 2 years that does not currently run its own forums. Or at least not in the official game webpage.
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Post by mrgametheory on Jun 1, 2006 12:50:46 GMT -5
"Glaring at a broken glass on the floor and screaming, "IT'S NOT MY JOB TO CLEAN IT UP," and then getting angry when it cuts you seems a tad odd to me. If you're given the chance, why not do something with it, no matter who started the problem?"
I think you made a mistake. A better metaphor would be:
Being told by someone that a Glass cup they were selling would be exactly like the representation of the glass cup they were selling. After you bought the glass cup you realized that it held water most efficiently, but almost every time you put your lips to the glass it would pinch your lip. When you went to the guy and complained about the product he went ahead and changed the color of the glass and added a nice cool culturally accepted slang to the glass, but he didn't fix the problem you asked for and instead asked you to help him fix the problem instead of whining over the broken glass because he is too busy spending his time marketing the glass cup and serving the needs of people who use the glass cup to put on a display in their house for decorations.
I think this is a better metaphor
In the end, the people who designed Civ 4 have no business sense. Why do I say this? Because they think the credibility they are losing by not dealing with a problem immediately which they are inevitably going to have to deal with later isn't worth the money. They look at the amount of people who play this game and realize that it is a small minority who actually play this game in multi player format and so its illogical "to them" to allocate too many resources to this area. This game has the potential to be the most strategic video game ever made, but the people who are working with the product lack the proper vision. Obviously the makers of the game don't want to make a perfect product or people wont buy Civ 5. But thats the wrong way of looking at this problem because if you make a perfect civ 4 than you will get an insane flux of people to play the game and all you have to do is make an even better civ 5 and everyone from civ 4 will come to civ 5. Civ 4 is garbage MP wise to some people and that is why they have not left Civ 3. If you fix all the problems of Civ 4 I bet you will instantly receive a flux of players.
(If there is no way of solving the MP issues than I guess you are handling the situation accordingly and you are just trying to buy yourselves time and so I say good luck and fire the people who made the initial product for creating a messed up foundation or next time hire specific people who test in this aspect of MP specifically. If there looks like a possible way of fixing the problem and there is a lack of resources being put into fixing the problem than I was correct and the people who are in charge of the product are idiots, (Im not going to call them retarted because of course they made a good product, but idiots because they are letting a problem which can be fixed ruin its MP reputation).
*Burn*!
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