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Post by ironclad on Nov 29, 2006 22:53:58 GMT -5
Spiritual is a must for future. Some day maybe I will write a guide why slavery is so awesome in future. Also universal suffrage is good too..the thing is you switch between em. Slavery early..get cash and if your not upgrading you go universal suffrage and burn up the cash. Trust me on this one. Slavery owns future. Spiritual owns future. 3 move workers own future. In a 3v3 or higher i think one guy going philosophical is great too. Then wonders start to shine. I havnet played for a while so i havent tried it out in the current enviroment but it seems spacerace +defence is the prevailing tactic at the moment (or so ive been told) and I belive a good slaver will CRUSH any such defensive attempts as he will have far more units. It is only a must because every other trait is useless... missing 4 turns of a game is not bad at all thats like 200 hammers and 20o gold on average per game... but other traits suck in future so there ya go Future sucks anyhow... here is the treatment, -1 settler/1 worker -Bombers can bomb/kill, Its not so easy to build up then as well -Artillery can bomb and break down walls from 2 spaces away as well as pillage -Paradroppers -Cruisemissles -As well get rid of the culture bomb too powerful, makes the game too much of stalemate and too defendable, less options for sneaky attacks as well -maybe make culture bomb 40 percent, and another artist for 60 percent (make 40 percent alot harder to get as well naturally) Civ3 had good future units -Make Modern armor a supreme unit, but cost quite a bit more than it does now (Oil,Rubber,Alum) -Make mechs more defensive(stronger than every other unit beside Modern armor), make it have no weakness, just have it for city defense like an archer (Oil) -Stealth Bombers way more expensive and can bomb roads and KILL units (Alum,Oil) -Bring back cheap Nuclear bombs and have them in nuclear subs or jsut moving on land... make ICBMS quite expensive -Don't show map its no fun, make a wonder or something to see whole map if it so neccessary And also maybe make a map like fractal where the team places are random
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Post by cv431410 on Nov 30, 2006 12:18:46 GMT -5
Trust me on this one. Slavery owns future. I have been taught: Slavery for early eras; Drafting for middle eras; Universal suffrage for late eras; For example, in the Future era, drafting costs 3 pupolation to produce a Mech Inf. and therefore, is unrealistic. Can't image how you produce a mech Inf. with slavery. On the other hand, if you produce $600 per turn and set research to 0%, the $600 can make several cities producing 1 mech inf. per turn under Universal suffrage. Trust but verify .
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Post by willburn on Nov 30, 2006 14:27:34 GMT -5
As ive said in earlier i might write an article about it someday..
ok first an example. Basically with forges and burocracy your will be getting 75% more hammers. Mill units will with police state net you 100% more hammers. If you slave a settler in your capitol the first turn you will baseline get it for 2 pop and 10 hammers will overflow to the next unit. Due to how slaving works these 10 hammers are AGAIN multiplied (auch) the bonus for the next unit. (so if i remember corectly - you actually are getting the bonus twice..once for the slaving and once for the overflow portion of the slaving hammers..will confirm or not in an article perhaps later but no time for that now)
Guess how much bonus universal suffrage counts? 0..thats right 0 bonuses. Its bugged... (i still use it for downperiods when my cities need to catch up population) Another aspect is food is more like 1 food gives you 2-3 hammers while gold is 8-4 gold gives you 1 hammer. You basically need a lot more commerce to get the same output ratio. Ofocurse the city would grow while doing universal suffrage. Thas why I do indeed use it when i want my cities to grow. (A good player will not get stuck in a single strategy) But slavery most of the time is awesome..
then the real reason: Snowball effect. Settlers cost 60 hammers, they give you a size 5 city that can again be slaved the same turn for a new city that gives you another 5 pop to slave..and it just keeps going and going..this way you crawl over the map in a mad pace (2 cities 1st turn 4 cities 2nd turn a bit slower 3rd turn but average 3 cities)
With stuff like dry docks etc you will get such a bargin. Especially since you have graneries in every city they will grow very fast back and you cant compeate with the ammount of hammers you get from slaving with pure production.
I could write much more detailed about it but sadly i have a report due tomorrow. I know this was a bit rambeling but if you get the logic behind it, especially the snowball effect you will start to understand how powerfull it is with slavery in future.
Also add to this chopping and you will be getting a lot of 3-fers ..basically a) faster settler and less pop slaved b) overflow is again bonused for slavery so use it whenever you can to add bonus again with overflow c) new settler gives new population for slaving even more. (and chopping more trees in new radius)
Also a thing about drafting it has a few glaring weaknesses: It adds more unhapiness Its not flexible (only one unit type) It doesnt get any bonus from buildings Available from turn 1 Decreases pop and uses food as source for hammer (very effiently)
But drafting is totaly awesome in earlier ages where the snowball effect isnt so huge and the slavery isnt so good due to all the bonuses it gets in later ages.
here is the same summary for slavery: Its flexible It only adds 1 unhapiness per whip It gets bonuses from buildings and civics It will force overflow to be bonused again (not totaly confirmed please check out) Its available from turn 1 Decreses pop and uses food as source for hammer (pretty effiently due to all bonuses in future)
Universal suffrage: Not much gold first turns so not as effient as slavery before gold is gotten. (basically not available from turn 1 ) No unhapiness. No decrease in pop Slows down early expansion due to less hammers total produced (limited by gold instead of population thats plentlily avialable on future starts) Flexible mediocre effiency in converting gold to hammers in best case scenarios 4 gold per hammer. No bonus from buildings or civics. No overflow double bonus.
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Post by churchill1 on Nov 30, 2006 15:05:00 GMT -5
Slavery for early eras; Drafting for middle eras; Universal suffrage for late eras; It just so happens that you can do all 3 in the later eras . Mad, mad, mad rushing. Also rushing made too easy. May be?
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Post by churchill1 on Nov 30, 2006 15:08:00 GMT -5
(so if i remember corectly - you actually are getting the bonus twice..once for the slaving and once for the overflow portion of the slaving hammers..will confirm or not in an article perhaps later but no time for that now) Yes. All the bonuses are added to overflow. And although I have played very little future and modern era, I think using slavery is still da bomb. I'm absolutely convinced it's effective for industrial rushes. Guess how much bonus universal suffrage counts? 0..thats right 0 bonuses. Its bugged... Universal suffrage definitely isn't bugged Willburn. It's intended to be like this, previously when all modifiers were taken into account it was thought to be overpowered. Once again I have had little experience with it but I'm sure that was the case. Like you say it's still worth using and is probably actually more balanced. Of course we always have to bear in mind that MP play is so much different from SP (which the game is primarily designed for). then the real reason: Snowball effect. Settlers cost 60 hammers, they give you a size 5 city that can again be slaved the same turn for a new city that gives you another 5 pop to slave..and it just keeps going and going..this way you crawl over the map in a mad pace (2 cities 1st turn 4 cities 2nd turn a bit slower 3rd turn but average 3 cities) I never thought about it this way. Interesting point. mediocre effiency in converting gold to hammers in best case scenarios 4 gold per hammer. Minor point. But I was led to believe it was 3 gold per hammer. And seen as rush buying is never affected by modifiers, this should be in every scenario. Lot s of clever stuff here Willburn. I enjoyed reading it. Remember if you ever find your chosen clan doesn't totally meet your expectations, there's always a space for you at GOD. (Poach, poach, poach)
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Post by willburn on Nov 30, 2006 15:09:17 GMT -5
Yup churchull. your on to a key component of the future..snowball effect..the more you can get out in 1 turn the more you will gain the next turn (due to facts like each city starting at size 5 and with nutsloads of buildings) and due to the fact that chopped forrests add a lot more hammers due to civics and buildings in cities and more cities also means more forrests faster in city radiuses for even more hammers... Basically the more hammers you can get out a turn of settlers and workers and get away with it defending (the minimum ammount of defence) will get you a big production advantage very fast (in a matter of 3-4 turns) over an opponent..you then cash in on the advantage and use it for more units than your opponent has and his city falls.
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Post by willburn on Nov 30, 2006 15:24:47 GMT -5
Basically the snowball effect is at the core of what civ4 is everything in it is design around it. Why do you think food keeps your city growing - its a slow pusher growing you larger and larger - why do you think commerce slowly pushes you for techs, why do you think hammers slowly push you for more units.
Every turn is about pushing the snowball faster (making it bigger) than your opponent. The only other concern is the tactical concern. I know for me personaly this metaphore has improved my game trumendusly from where i started. And cool thing about civ4 is that i still discover new ways of "pushing the snowball faster"
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Post by willburn on Nov 30, 2006 15:28:39 GMT -5
". And seen as rush buying is never affected by modifiers, this should be in every scenario."
Rushing wonders costs more (but not team projects) Rush buying stuff with 0 hammers costs 50% more or 100% more not sure i remember. So i think its stuff with 1 hammer in it costs 3 or 4 gold not sure and stuff with 0 hammers in it costs 6 or 8 i think. (Could check it out with editor pretty quickly ?)
Actually i think its a 50% negative since thats whats for slavery with 0 hammers in it.
But then again let me strongly say that i still use universal suffrage as its a great tool when your population needs to grow back after using slavery early for the much better snowball effect than what universal suffrage can give you early.
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Post by churchill1 on Nov 30, 2006 15:31:58 GMT -5
Rushing wonders costs more (but not team projects) Rush buying stuff with 0 hammers costs 50% more or 100% more not sure i remember. I knew that! I knew that! Just testing. Yeah sorry, you're right. I agree, I think the penalty on first turn buying is the same as slavery (50%). It doesn't really matter what it is because, excepting special circumstances, I would never pop rush or rush buy on the first turn of production. As for wonders, the same is true for slavery and apparently the penalty depends on what wonder it is. Someone pointed me towards the list in the xml, but I never got round to checking it, may be I will because I think it could be useful.
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Post by willburn on Nov 30, 2006 15:38:35 GMT -5
Damn i learn something new about civ4 still..i love this game. I assumed the cost was the same for each wonder as i only tested for a few. If your assumtion is correct that would be very interesting to see what wonders are affect how much. Thanks for this theory ! Thats the same as when i tought i had discovered how distance to palace cost in gold worked, only to have the theory crushed when i saw it was different for differnet diffoulties, size of map (not only name of size but actually tiles) and much more i cannot possible begin to unraval easily. One more thing: i stronly recommend even with the 50% penatly you consider slaving a settler or worker the first turn on future starts (unless your 3 squares from your opponent - 4squares its ok ) Its basically still worth it because those 2 pop gave you 5 pop and the chance to get out say a worker and a settler the next turn. Also a key component of mass crawl is to have cheap defensive units. explorers fit this bill perfectly. usually the are built in a city with overflow in 1 turn no matter what. They Make your city survive long enough for reinforcement to arrive. Perfect defenders.
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Post by churchill1 on Nov 30, 2006 15:51:22 GMT -5
In my playstyle i have like max 0.5 sec to make decisions for each of my workers (and there are actually options considered) i usually barly manage to finish my turns with all units moved. And for me this is fun as it pressures me to think fast. Ok I was very interested to read this. Most people will know I am a fast devotee. I would even prefer it for ancient (people think I'm truly weird). Having said that, there have been times where I have played medieval teamers on blazing (for example) and managed to just about do everything on time. And like you say it's kind of a rush and makes it more fun. However I get really frustrated when I run out of time and have to leave units sleeping and am not able to play as well as I could if I had more time (I feel totally robbed tbh - and I'm really sure it has cost me a game on occasion). I think I use most of the keyboard shortcuts effectively and yet I still run out of time (hm that might not be true - but idk how useful the keyboard shortcuts are). I know it's true for others, people who swear by blazing have the same problem as me, their land isn't worked properly and units are left dormant. To be brutally honest (and this is really generalising) some who prefer blazing play pretty bad, they might only make a couple workers for example . It's also no coincidence that in most (less skilled) non ladder games you will be screamed at if you haven't press enter after 2 seconds. ('enter is your friend' is the most often used phrase and it's not the only severely overused joke in CIV ;D) And as for working out your overall strategy (which often varies in game) - you can kind of forget it. I also wonder if the timers haven't been set properly. Sometimes on blazing I have done everything 20 seconds before the turn end, coversely sometimes on a fast timer I am really strapped for time. (Of course it depends on what you are doing at that time. If you are just sitting building a city for example and you only have a couple of cities then of course you will have more time. If you are attacking and defending at the same time, running 16 cities, controlling 50 workers and ranting at ur arrogant noob teammate to put the pike INSIDE THE FRONT CITY then you have less time. )
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Post by willburn on Nov 30, 2006 16:05:22 GMT -5
Plan ahead and use shift to que up movements is the best remedy for speeding up your game. (and ofcourse using hotkeys) But sometimes queing up hurts you..if you want to fast move you want as few qued up movements as possible as this is processed at the beginning of the turn and will affect your moment speed if you say use ctrl+a to force a fast move. (also actually affects the spam numpad and zoom in on unit fastmove) Saying that future matches get you exactly what you say 16 cities and 50 workers..pretty damn fast. With 50 workers and say 30 sec turns you know your in a world of hurt speedwise. (its possible but only if you really push yourself) So i kinda like fast on future, but i think actually blazing will hurt my opponents more than me as i consider myself pretty fast at civ4. Fast is more luxury to have time to think
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Post by churchill1 on Nov 30, 2006 16:08:55 GMT -5
But i think actually blazing will hurt my opponents more than me as i consider myself pretty fast at civ4. Fast is more luxury to have time to think I think blazing hurts me more than it does my opponents. I really like time to think and it makes civ more enjoyable for me. BTW I think it's the Churchill-Willburn debate on the forums tonight. Who will be elected the new CIV president? In fact we have probably posted more times between us in the last half hour or so than the total number of posts in the month before that.
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Post by churchill1 on Dec 1, 2006 8:08:16 GMT -5
...if you say use ctrl+a to force a fast move. Is using ctrl+a a quicker fast move? I never use it, when I have it didn't seem very effective. Rokkit says you shared some special fast move trick with him and he refuses to share it.
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Post by tamijo on Dec 1, 2006 8:50:34 GMT -5
I just hate the keyboard ! , playing all games mouse only, and due to that, i'we up til now never even touched it once in civ4. But on the other hand, looking for ways to improve myself. i would love if you could share, just the basic off the most important hotkeys you use.
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Post by arthursrodrigues on Dec 1, 2006 16:07:03 GMT -5
lovely debate
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Post by Atomation on Dec 1, 2006 16:45:14 GMT -5
I think rokkits trick is zooming in really close when trying to fast move, but I don't really think it does anything ;p. It's all the computer speed and then a coinflip if everyone has the fastest possible.
I always slave turn 1 in every city in future. It's stupid not to. Imperial is extremely powerful in future for this, and I think expansive is less powerful in future from this, since they actually have too many hammers (ironically) and can't use them all fast enough!
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Post by willburn on Dec 1, 2006 20:20:40 GMT -5
Zoom close. Select unit and press the numpad to the direction your moving very fast. Also in 2.08 the unit might be deselected after a few seconds of keeping pressing numpad. You will have to reselect it fast with mouse..after 3 reselects it will keep on the unit again.
If you have to 2 move keep pressing the numpad even after you have moved 1 space in the following turn. You will move first the 2nd move too then.
Also tips to improve it even more: Remove anything that you can that will process at the start of the turn. Make no qued up movements, make no autosaves etc.
Also tip for the fastest possible numpad pressing is a bit tricky, but you can work your finger muscle into a muscle spasm and it will press incredible fast like 10times a second.
Finaly the reason this works is it creates a nutsload of movements presses thats faster than the computer can prosess each one so it ques them up in its information processing stack, if you overload it it will ofcourse be first since the computer has it first on the stack of stuff to do the next turn.
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Post by ironclad on Dec 2, 2006 19:41:37 GMT -5
why would u slave at all... the settlers are like 1 turn
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Post by ironclad on Dec 2, 2006 19:48:36 GMT -5
I think rokkits trick is zooming in really close when trying to fast move, but I don't really think it does anything ;p. It's all the computer speed and then a coinflip if everyone has the fastest possible. I always slave turn 1 in every city in future. It's stupid not to. Imperial is extremely powerful in future for this, and I think expansive is less powerful in future from this, since they actually have too many hammers (ironically) and can't use them all fast enough! Not true... I have a very slow computer but... One time i moved at 0 Seconds - was very nice, unfortunately only have been able to do it twice Jonneyboy can do it everytime , don't know if its faster than explore though
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