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Post by mrgametheory on Jun 6, 2006 15:47:48 GMT -5
Would it be possible for someone who "helped to design" the game or a bunch of people who really know the great person game to provide a great person break down of the tecs. Like what great people give at certain stages of the game when you have and dont have certain tecs. I know at first glance this may seem ridiculous, but it really isn't too bad and if you were looking at the actual structure of the game it wouldn't be difficult?
Lets make it and add another dimension to strategy.
This Will be a gradual process unless someone from the game can actually help us out, but I think that this chart would completely change this game when it is finished.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 6, 2006 16:06:23 GMT -5
There's a list laying around somewhere on Civfanatics. I saw it once but I can't find it again
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 6, 2006 20:35:37 GMT -5
Great Prophet:
Meditation Polytheism Priesthood Monotheism Theology Divine Right Mysticism (??) Code of Laws Civil Service Monarchy Literature Music Writing Philosophy Printing Press Drama Alphabet Paper Education Liberalism Calendar Masonry Animal Husbandry Construction Future Tech
Great Scientist:
Writing Mathematics Scientific Method Physics Education Printing Press Fiber Optics Computers The Wheel Philosophy Chemistry Fission Fusion Optics Paper Astronomy Biology Electricity Flight Genetics Compass Satellites Sailing Alphabet Calendar Medicine Ecology Iron Working Metal Casting Engineering Steam Power Liberalism Agriculture Masonry Bronze Working Machinery Gunpowder Refrigeration Rocketry Fishing Combustion Plastics Composites Mining Radio Meditation Drama Theology Music Civil Service Democracy Corporation Communism Economics Hunting Archery Animal Husbandry Construction Robotics Monotheism Mass Media Horseback Riding Replaceable Parts Rifling Artillery Future Tech
Great Artist:
Literature Drama Music Polytheism Monarchy Mass Media Radio Mysticism Monotheism Divine Right Alphabet Meditation Priesthood Theology Nationalism Writing Philosophy Printing Press Liberalism Pottery Horseback Riding Democracy Education Military Tradition Communism Astronomy Computers Feudalism Constitution Fishing Sailing Paper Biology Archery Masonry Metal Casting Civil Service Guilds Fascism Hunting Animal Husbandry Bronze Working Construction Railroad Robotics Future Tech
Great Merchant:
Currency Banking Economics Corporation Metal Casting Code of Laws Mining Constitution Wheel Pottery Sailing Paper Railroad Industrialism Monarchy Civil Service Guilds Fascism Mass Media Agriculture Writing Mathematics Printing Press Flight Machinery Replaceable Parts Satellites Mysticism Priesthood Divine Right Nationalism Calendar Scientific Method Medicine Horseback Riding Compass Steam Power Future Tech
Great Engineer:
Machinery Assembly Line Industrialism Combustion Metal Casting Mining Iron Working Engineering Replaceable Parts Steam Power Steel Robotics Railroad Feudalism Fascism The Wheel Plastics Masonry Construction Guilds Bronze Working Corporation Electricity Animal Husbandry Gunpowder Priesthood Monarchy Code of Laws Constitution Agriculture Economics Chemistry Fission Genetics Fusion Optics Civil Service Nationalism Communism Ecology Pottery Calendar Currency Banking Scientific Method Physics Medicine Refrigeration Computers Divine Right Fishing Mathematics Flight Fiber Optics Hunting Horseback Riding Rifling Future Tech __________________
i thought this would be really useful
but i still havent got around to using it
there is something really odd about the order. i just lifted it straight from the civfanatics site. e.g. hunting being right at the end for great engineer.
i think to make it more useful, u could simply delete techs like this which u will definitely have already. i might do this
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Post by lporiginalg on Jun 6, 2006 20:41:46 GMT -5
Ya i've seen that list before and I think it's useless, I mean how could literacy be so far ahead of alaphebet on the list, it just doesn't make any sense. I have gotten a pretty good idea of what techs you get from great people especialy since ladder games are a limited variety of scenarios you get a pretty good idea of when it can be profitable to burn a great person into a tech.
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Post by mrgametheory on Jun 6, 2006 20:58:03 GMT -5
OK This is what I mean.
Is there a direct order that you get tecs from great people. Do they always gie the same tecs if you have the same tecs already completed? Sometimes I notice my great prophet giving me philosophy and sometimes theology and sometimes civil service, what determines it and by that I mean what Specific tecs do I need to get the spec iifc one I want or it it random. I want to build a Map that gives a detailed list of what tecs you need to have as a prerequist before you get to have a certain tec as the one a certain great person gives. I know it seems like an insane amount of work and It kinda is, but if we could somehow get our hands on a designer of the game he might be able to easily give us that list and I believe that the list would dramatically change the strategy in this game and possibly balance it out. heh could also destroy the game, but hey, thats what I do best ;D
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Post by Tony on Jun 6, 2006 21:06:58 GMT -5
OK This is what I mean. heh could also destroy the game, but hey, thats what I do best ;D Firaxis has beat you to it by almost 7 months
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 6, 2006 21:31:29 GMT -5
hm hate to be telling this to the game theorist. but this is what i showed u. if u have all its prerequisites and u either already have or cannot obtain all the techs previous to it in the list then ur great person will give u this tech. i think this is how it works. i hope that makes sense as far as i know there is no variation and the techs great peeps give will always follow this list. u need to check out civfanatics a bit more. it is insane the lengths people have gone to understand the game and become better at it.
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Post by ..A..kazache on Jun 6, 2006 22:14:16 GMT -5
Hi, it isnĀ“t as simple as the list express for example: you get theology from prophet when you have meditation and mono
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 6, 2006 23:03:30 GMT -5
As kaza and churchill were saying if you have a great person he will always be able get the first tech on that list that is allowed to be researched. If i didnt have masonary and had techs Meditation,polytheism, priesthood, mysticism and code of laws then a great prophet would give me civil service as monotheism requires masonary, theology require monotheism, and dive right requires theology. eg. (from churchills list) Great Prophet:Meditation // Have it Polytheism // Have it Priesthood // Have it Monotheism // Requires masonary so isnt allowed to be researched Theology // Requires monotheism Divine Right // Requires divine right Mysticism (??) // Have it Code of Laws // Have it Civil Service // Great prophet will be able to give me this Monarchy Literature Music etc. Thanks to kaza for teaching me this trick btw Also note that a great prophet will also get you music first (again provided you dont research masonry that causes him to go down the mono-theo-dive right path) With the free artist you get from music you can use it to get education (provided you dont research machinery or masonry - or the artist will get printing press/religions instead). A sure fire way to win the race to liberalism It's fun pulling off these tricks and getting beurocracy in turn 30 (with oracle for code of laws) music in turn 40 and liberalism by turn 60
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Post by Elledge on Jun 6, 2006 23:24:21 GMT -5
The music education artist is my secret sauce
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Post by lporiginalg on Jun 6, 2006 23:25:02 GMT -5
ok i see how it works, thanks nota.
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Post by mrgametheory on Jun 6, 2006 23:35:48 GMT -5
exactly thats what Im talking about, obviously I know the above two, but I would love to have alist for the entire tec map thats my goal.
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 7, 2006 0:25:59 GMT -5
exactly thats what Im talking about, obviously I know the above two, but I would love to have alist for the entire tec map thats my goal. Well all the info is there in that list. If you want on a Civ4 tech tree printout you could write next to each item the prophets that give the tech and the number the tech is in the prophets list. That way when you can see what techs prophets will give by looking for the lowest number next to the available techs. Personally i think the list above is the most readable way of determining what techs prophets will give though. Perhaps that list could be enhanced by writing the prerequisites next to each tech eg. Great Prophet:Meditation - mysticism Polytheism - mysticism Priesthood - Medititaion or polytheism Monotheism - masonary and poltheism etc. (someone else can fill it out for the whole thing )
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Post by tommynt on Jun 7, 2006 3:41:17 GMT -5
didnt know that list and how it work - espacially this dont have masonary thing is important as your 1. great people are usually prohets and theo is just not as important as buerocrazy
I allways knew that it is somehow possible do get civil service with prohets ...
also I think that the lists are complete as I know for sure that f.e. GP dont give any late tech boost - so i guess it s same for other GP and the boost for later techs d be too small to be effectiv anyway - better to get ga or some wonders or whatever as tech boost
btw in ironman i used merchant for civil service - kinda nice aswell, the next merchant for printing press - colosus dont suck
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Post by MMV on Jun 7, 2006 7:20:26 GMT -5
if early in the game you get a great prophet that gives you mono - you can save it until you have mono and the great prophet will change to theo (which gives you a few turns to "plan" for it).
this, of course, happens with all the great prophets. If you are within 5-6 tuns of getting the tech you are going to be given, save it and use it after you get the tech, and it changes to a tech further down the tree - that is unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED TO HAVE that tech NOW without waiting a few turns.
Use it on a tech that you'll have in 5-8 turns, or use it on one that you won't get for 12-18 turns.
(and if anyone didn't know, hold your mouse/cursor on the "light bulb" of the GP and it will tell you what you're going to get)
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Post by Ellestar on Jun 7, 2006 7:29:04 GMT -5
I have this post in my Favorites. It's probably what you need forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952Out of all techs available for research, your great person will pick one with the highest corresponding raiting from that table. No idea what it does in case of a tie. Edit: Ok, it seems to be coded in CvUnit.cpp TechTypes CvUnit::getDiscoveryTech() const { TechTypes eBestTech; int iValue; int iBestValue; int iI, iJ;
iBestValue = 0; eBestTech = NO_TECH;
for (iI = 0; iI < GC.getNumTechInfos(); iI++) { if (GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).canResearch((TechTypes)iI)) { iValue = 0;
for (iJ = 0; iJ < GC.getNumFlavorTypes(); iJ++) { [b]iValue += (GC.getTechInfo((TechTypes) iI).getFlavorValue(iJ) * flavorValue((FlavorTypes)iJ));[/b] }
if (iValue > iBestValue) { iBestValue = iValue; eBestTech = ((TechTypes)iI); } } }
return eBestTech; }
So, in case of a tie game takes first tech from a list (most likely in the same order how it's defined in XML).
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Post by Ellestar on Jun 7, 2006 7:48:15 GMT -5
OK This is what I mean. Is there a direct order that you get tecs from great people. Do they always gie the same tecs if you have the same tecs already completed? Sometimes I notice my great prophet giving me philosophy and sometimes theology and sometimes civil service, what determines it and by that I mean what Specific tecs do I need to get the spec iifc one I want or it it random. I want to build a Map that gives a detailed list of what tecs you need to have as a prerequist before you get to have a certain tec as the one a certain great person gives. I know it seems like an insane amount of work and It kinda is, but if we could somehow get our hands on a designer of the game he might be able to easily give us that list and I believe that the list would dramatically change the strategy in this game and possibly balance it out. heh could also destroy the game, but hey, thats what I do best ;D Well, it's possible to make an application that will do it and i even thought about writing one, but what's the point to do it? You want it to show all possible combinations of techs you need to have so to be able to research a certain tech with that great person? That one is relatively easy but not really useful. The thing that is more useful is like that example with Masonry that "switches" techs between Theocracy and Civil Service, but it's hard to formulate that condition in a form so it may be written in a program code.
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Post by notagoodname on Jun 7, 2006 7:55:25 GMT -5
That table on civ fanatics is very unclear and imprecise. Have a look at churchills post in this thread (post #3 of this very thread) The techs listed there show the preference a great person will try and give you a tech (from top to bottom) A great person can only give you a tech if you can research it. So the very first tech on that list that you can research is what a great person will give you. Have a look above at my post for an example of this. Once you get a hang of using that table churchill posted you will be able to tell what techs a prophet will give very easily.
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Post by Ellestar on Jun 7, 2006 8:10:47 GMT -5
That table on civ fanatics is very unclear and imprecise. Unclear? Maybe. Imprecise? ROFL It's a raw data that is used by a game itself, it can't possibly be imprecise (unless there is a typo somewhere, of course) A great person can only give you a tech if you can research it. So the very first tech on that list that you can research is what a great person will give you. Have a look above at my post for an example of this. Like... Meditation before Mysticism? Once you get a hang of using that table churchill posted you will be able to tell what techs a prophet will give very easily. Yes, i agree that is more useful but Gametheory already said that it's not exactly he was looking for. So i posted a link to a formatted raw data (taken from xml) and game code that picks a tech. There is no real need to tell me that there is a post 3 here, i know how to read myself It's actually the same list but divided per-great person and sorted in descending order.
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Post by Tony on Jun 7, 2006 12:41:09 GMT -5
This is a pretty interesting post, i tried that CivilService jump in a 1v1 open, and if you can pull it off its a huge advantage. Was getting axes in 1, settlers in 2 and workers in 2.
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