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Post by Elledge on Jun 12, 2006 13:36:14 GMT -5
Why is that? I thought every whip gave the same amount of base hammers (perhaps someone could tell me how many) adapted with modifiers like res or trait). Righto. Suppose you are building a forge, and you're industrial, so it's still 80 hammers but you produce double the hammers for it. Whereas normally a whipped population is worth 20p, you get 40p per pop on the forge. Now say your forge is at 75/80 finished, and you whip 1 population to put it at 115/80. You'll still get your full 35 bonus overflow hammers applied to the next build next turn, at the cost of only 1 pop.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 12, 2006 16:16:27 GMT -5
i think i am missing something here. i mean the slave is just as advatageous whether u do it when the forge is just started or when it has just finished.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 12, 2006 17:30:27 GMT -5
Not if you think about it. Suppose your city makes 5 hammers per turn and you are industrious. You want to make a forge (80p), then a barracks (40p).
So here are two different ways you could do it:
Turn 1, 2, 3, 4, 5: 5x2 for ind = 10 hammers per turn to the forge. At the end of turn 5 there are 50 hammers on the forge. You slave 1 pop (as soon as you could do it to slave 1) to get 40 more hammers on the forge, leaving it with 90/80p.
Turn 6: 10 overflow to barracks plus five = 15 on the barracks now.
Turn 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12: 5 hammers every turn. The barracks is done and in the city on turn 12.
Okay, now look:
Turn 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7: 10 hammers per turn to the forge. At the end of turn 7 there are 70 hammers on the forge. You slave 1 pop to get 40 hammers leaving it with 110/80p.
Turn 8: 30 overflow plus 5 = 35 on the barracks.
Turn 9: Barracks is done.
In the second scenario, the reason you finish the projects quicker is because you are getting more mileage out of the slave hammers. The slave hammers are supercharged because you slaved the forge, but you're using overflow to trick them into actually going toward a project that has much slower natural production.
Do you see what I mean now? The exact same principle would apply if you finished a tree chop earlier in the forge, as opposed to finishing it at the end and using overflow to your advantage.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 12, 2006 18:43:03 GMT -5
i don't totally get it but that's just me the only reasoning i can see behind this is that ur base hammers are at 100% all the time ur making the forge. if u halt the process early (by slaving) then u wont get all those turns of base hammers being at double there normal value. actually that's probably it. but i see no flaw in ur example. so to keep it simple (stupid): as a rule when slaving and chopping trees for (e.g.) a forge with industrious, you should chop and slave when it is almost done.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 12, 2006 18:46:00 GMT -5
i don't totally get it but that's just me the only reasoning i can see behind this is that ur base hammers are at 100% all the time ur making the forge. if u halt the process early (by slaving) then u wont get all those turns of base hammers being at double there normal value. actually that's probably it. Yeah, that's pretty much it. so to keep it simple (stupid): as a rule when slaving and chopping trees for (e.g.) a forge with industrious, you should chop and slave when it is almost done. Sure. Note that you could also have slaved for 2 population when the forge had, say, 30 hammers on it, if you wanted to, and still gotten a great benefit. The key is to abuse big overflow amounts.
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Post by Atomation on Jun 13, 2006 15:06:40 GMT -5
Another case in point - since you guys are touching on it already - is using overflow towards workers and settlers. This is enormously effective, and I use this as often as possible, especially in ancient games. Micro your normal projects (non worker/settler) to try and come as close to -1 hammer from complete as you can, and slave or chop and use all the overflow for a settler or worker. The effect is that you spend much less time not growing and also slavery is normally reduced by half for workers and settlers, but the overflow hammers from slavery is not reduced. I found that in the current patch, chariots (20 hammers for quick?) are an optimal vessel for overflow, as you can only overflow a maximum of the unit's total cost in hammers, which happens to be exactly the same as the slavery yield in hammers - so you net 19 overflow hammers, the max overflow yield possible (that isn't doubled by proficiency). Of course, first you would want to overflow with the double production projects, such as barracks on aggressive, but since you can only do this once it isn't applicable continuously as chariots are.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 13, 2006 19:15:15 GMT -5
This is a good point, because as soon as you have slavery and a granary, slavery becomes a more efficient way to use your extra food than 1:1 hammer conversion on a worker and settler. The less turns you spend on workers and settlers, the better off you are.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 23, 2006 5:50:54 GMT -5
Not if you think about it. Suppose your city makes 5 hammers per turn and you are industrious. You want to make a forge (80p), then a barracks (40p). So here are two different ways you could do it: Turn 1, 2, 3, 4, 5: 5x2 for ind = 10 hammers per turn to the forge. At the end of turn 5 there are 50 hammers on the forge. You slave 1 pop (as soon as you could do it to slave 1) to get 40 more hammers on the forge, leaving it with 90/80p. Turn 6: 10 overflow to barracks plus five = 15 on the barracks now. Turn 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12: 5 hammers every turn. The barracks is done and in the city on turn 12. Okay, now look: Turn 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7: 10 hammers per turn to the forge. At the end of turn 7 there are 70 hammers on the forge. You slave 1 pop to get 40 hammers leaving it with 110/80p. Turn 8: 30 overflow plus 5 = 35 on the barracks. Turn 9: Barracks is done. In the second scenario, the reason you finish the projects quicker is because you are getting more mileage out of the slave hammers. The slave hammers are supercharged because you slaved the forge, but you're using overflow to trick them into actually going toward a project that has much slower natural production. Do you see what I mean now? The exact same principle would apply if you finished a tree chop earlier in the forge, as opposed to finishing it at the end and using overflow to your advantage. Well, i asked at civfanatics about this, whether it was a common 'exploit'. And a very knowldegable guy called Roland from the Netherlands, told me that ( i think post patch) it actually doesnt work like this. i tested it and he is right. Although I dont fully understand how hammer overflow works.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 23, 2006 6:50:14 GMT -5
Actually I've heard that it was indeed fixed with the last patch, and frankly I haven't even hardly had an opportunity to test it because I'm always Napoleon nowadays it seems; no spi = no slavery much. Shame if it was, though; Roland knows his nuts and if he says it I bet it's true.
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Post by Elledge on Jun 23, 2006 7:08:34 GMT -5
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Post by zzZhenon on Jun 23, 2006 18:11:13 GMT -5
I like to partial build tile improvements. Let's say it will take you 2 moves to get to the tile you want to improve. Why now just move 1 tile and partial build a road, then set the worker to sleep, then move him once more the next turn and build your improvement. That way when you go back to the other tile, you have 1 turn less to build it. This way your worker doesn't spend all of his moves moving and actually works while he moves, hehe.
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Post by churchill1 on Jun 24, 2006 0:49:48 GMT -5
Good point Zhen. I don't think you've read the thread though. ;D
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Post by dreddcool on Jun 25, 2006 15:04:29 GMT -5
i use slavery only when i m in trouble , i dont like to slave coz espcially in ctons the pop points are so important.. but slaving workers or settlers is not a bad idea, i ll try it
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Post by Ascension on Jun 25, 2006 16:20:44 GMT -5
Unbelievable, my ears can't even begin to fathom what they are hearing. Have any of you took the time to consider the poor citizens you are whipping to death just to get your forge or what ever a few turns sooner. It is your duty as leader of a nation to take good care of the denizens which populate your civ. Such cavalier talk of working a person till he dies of exhaustion disgust me to the very core. Have you all no heart or compassion toward the common laborer.
Maybe you should put more effort into building library and hospitals so all can have a good education and proper health care services. And make sure they are built only with union worker who get lunch breaks and overtime pay.
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Post by tommynt on Jun 25, 2006 20:43:42 GMT -5
dredd score in t120 (or whatever is the end) counts - just start let your cities grow in t80 they ll reach their max pop easily in time
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Post by deyreepher on Jun 25, 2006 21:12:47 GMT -5
Slaving workers and settlers is not a bad idea at all. You have to consider you'll be getting that population back alot quicker by planting that city or improving your city's land tiles.
Sometimes you have to deal with a few STDs to find Ms. Right. It's all about trade offs.
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Post by notagoodname on Aug 15, 2006 1:20:15 GMT -5
Something i've been telling teammates and it seems a lot of people don't relise.
Certain resources give all your connected cities +1 hammer. These include bronze, horse, iron, stone and marble.
So if you have bronze, horse, iron, stone and marble all your cities will have +5 hammers before working any tiles!
So in a teamer if you have spare bronze give it to your teammate even if he has iron anyway.
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Post by churchill1 on Aug 19, 2006 11:32:05 GMT -5
I always wondered why the mouseover showed a hammer. Thanks for clearing this up NAGN. Heh. I feel pretty stoopid now.
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Post by venceslas on Aug 19, 2006 11:54:04 GMT -5
"So if you have bronze, horse, iron, stone and marble all your cities will have +5 hammers before working any tiles!"
=> I was very surprised by this tip, so I have checked, but these hammers are not added to my production.
Maybe there are others constraints?
chris.
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Post by Tony on Aug 19, 2006 13:36:37 GMT -5
Hmmm i used to think these hammers are added to your cites aswell back when i was learning the game, but they are not! Im not sure why they show 1 hammer next to stone, or 1 food next to corn. After building warrior for 1 turn using a no hammer tile! 5-6 hammers 3-4 food off the bat in a new city would make the city crazy ... no?
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