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Post by Avogadro on Dec 6, 2005 15:31:31 GMT -5
nice post. I often save my prophets for later more expensive techs and artist for those last turn towns. I don't think it is cheap points, you earned the artist. I have seen ladder games where some people do not generate a single great person. In this game that strategy should not win. The one who balanced GP, military production, and tech research deserves to win.
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Post by Onan on Dec 6, 2005 21:59:11 GMT -5
Couple notes regarding assumptions, Heroic.
1) I think your second GP costs the same whether it's in the 1st or 2nd city. I think the cost for the second goes up in all cities to the same amount. So, if I'm right, there's no cheaper in a new city trick there.
2) Cities can no longer share tiles. It's either/or. Plus, they can't be built 2 tiles distance from each other, minimum is 3 now.
Having said that, yep, there's lots of possibilities for those late GP parties. It's equivalent to, in civ3, maxing your luxes and adding workers to towns in those last few turns--something we learn to do to manipulate the scoring system--not my favorite part either.
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Post by MMV on Dec 7, 2005 11:45:22 GMT -5
avo "great artisted" me raising his score by 200 and lowering mine by 200 in one single turn.
to make things worse, I saw the stack of units with settler, workers, defensive units, and great artist headed to the vicinity of my border.
CLEARLY avo has a bug and needs a patch.
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Post by Avogadro on Dec 7, 2005 13:49:07 GMT -5
Not sure what you are refering to, we haven't played in a few weeks...Please explain
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Post by snotty on Dec 7, 2005 14:12:03 GMT -5
Two times now I have seen players change final score at the end of turn 0. Once enough to put someone in 1st from 2nd, and this time enough to push me from 3rd to 4th by 3 points Any idea what causes the 'end of turn 0' points bonus?
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Post by Avogadro on Dec 7, 2005 16:28:12 GMT -5
The pop-up for victory is decided at beginning of turn 0. It should be at the end of turn 0. This is a bug and it will be fixed next patch. If you have such a save as non corresponding pop-up and points email it to me. I will forward it to developpers.
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Post by Sidhe on Dec 19, 2005 16:35:51 GMT -5
For someone who doesn't like point racing you certainly have put alot of thought into how to maximise your points Heroic. Interesting though. I have played games, rather too many for my liking lately, where I have had such lousy production that the only way to get even a half decent score was to try and expand quickly and build plenty of cultural improvements, hope that someone misses a wonder down the line somewhere. Either that or just try killing someone for fun. I think people forget as well that, yes it is a good idea to get extra cities but there is an optimum for any game situation, if your struggling to tech because of lack of funds then expanding is not going to gain as much as improving the existing cities and by extension letting them grow more quickly than that new city. Plus fewer cities are easier to defend. Too many players seem oblivious to the implications of score, having 5 size 15 cities is often better than having ten size 9 cities, simply because of the cultural boost saving on expansion has given. People also underestimate the boost a few wonders can give to your score. A GP or two, sometimes population/production boosts and cultural boosts, great wonder points aren't 10% more like 25%
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Post by ghost on Dec 19, 2005 18:46:49 GMT -5
on heroics gp novel. great persons increase in every city once one is born. thats why if building wonders build them in your most productive city and watch the great people fly in. plus if you are phil trait it doubles your gp brithrate.(i'm only phill civ's in random civs game)your 1st gp costs 67 gp points. your next is around 137 gp points and so on. but getting 2 cities making gp isn't very hard to do. everytime a gp is born in a city that city's gp bar gose back to 0 but your other cities still keep there gp points in them till they give birth to a new gp. now smart players would mircomange this so they can flip flop cities making gp. usally i have my 2 best food cities as my gp cities. one will get the 1st gp then i try to get my 2nd city to get a gp before the 1st city that just gave birth to a gp bar goses up. rember being phil trait gives u 2x the bonus on gp points in each city.(or building wonders or making speciest in cities help increase gp production. my fav is the natial epic as it gives u double the production of gp. its abit of thought into it but can payoff huge if done right.
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Post by tommynt on Dec 19, 2005 18:57:58 GMT -5
in the end there s no more big difference in playing superior then in winning point race in CIV - that might be the biggest improvement
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Post by werttrew on Jan 17, 2006 9:33:11 GMT -5
I was told that in the last few moments, when you're desperately trying to squeeze out the last few drops in points, to set all your cities on Research. Every lightbulb would count towards the final score, I was told, even if you don't research that last tech.
True? Not true?
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Post by SirPartyMan on Jan 17, 2006 10:08:23 GMT -5
Yes, at the end of the game, as it becomes impossible to finish any other building in the time allotted, I switch cities to RESEARCH in the hopes of gaining an extra tech (points) before game end.
However, I can't verify that you receive credit for leftover beakers (research points). I don't believe that's the case - but I will double check next game I'm in.
Best, SPM
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Post by DrShot on Jan 17, 2006 14:46:59 GMT -5
She blinded me, with... need I say more...
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 17, 2006 14:55:28 GMT -5
Actually just set the game settings to city raising is a good way to win on points, provided you know all the tricks then you should be able to out build your neighbour particualary with the new patch. If he attacks and loses near the start he loses, if he attacks an wins he loses to the rest unless he kills everyone which is unlikely, and by the time an attack becomes practical you should of out built the lower score by having higher prod cities to get a good defence. Of course if everyone else knows all the tricks you may as well not bother playing at all as the games pretty much decided on land. Please repatch it so that stuff costs less again There is a difference between experience and the abiltiy to play with the city rasing setting and the patch as it stands the only difference in this game is the land. everything else being equal there is no skill in knowing how to build. And no city raising aggression with the patch can be quite difficult to win too. Hopefully we will see this sitaution fixed soon I don't mind building my arse off, hell I've won games doing it but I do like a bit of variety. ATM it's just impossible to kill all the builders in the game.
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reptile
Worker
in desperate need of a new avatar
Posts: 106
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Post by reptile on Jan 17, 2006 15:58:10 GMT -5
Actually just set the game settings to city raising is a good way to win on points A good way to win on points is to play in windowed mode!!! An evil strategy!
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Post by Sidhe on Jan 17, 2006 20:12:52 GMT -5
And it's no wonder at the moment people play alot of teamers, the game as it stands in scenarios is about mostly how much you know about the game and how you can use it. anyone who's in a clan a beta tester or who just plays and gains knowledge can win atm, there's no real skill and it's annoying.Listen carefully: There's no skill in winning at all(it's just experience, not clever play), in city raising and no city rasing before the patch their was skil, but people wont play 180 turn gamesl, now it's just pointless, and the sooner people realise this the better, do the maths please: you simply can't build enough units to be effective. Of course people will say I will win against anyone but atm, you wont it's a toss of the die. Unless you play FFA or teamers. Sad but true.
Or your fried and you know the game inside out, frankly this game is fun atm, but with equally skilled players it's a waste of their time. Patch it back to the pre patch, or play pointless buildfests with clan/beta testers in cton that test nothing about the skill in this game!!
Thanks for putting this game back to the do A to B and C style that annoyed me about civ; I'll still play and I'll win but I'm just using tried and tested methods!! honestly guys. Patch 2.1 soon!!
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Post by nhlpraetorian on Jan 19, 2006 4:29:22 GMT -5
Few things... 1- the great artist trick while still handy for points is needed now 20 turns prior to turn 0 to be effective at all. 2- agreed Sidhe...there is little skill in this game atm...a cton 135 turn 2 city elim comes down to land and iron/copper starts...all top 100 players in game...and there is no skill, just knowledge and luck of starting loc. 3- rather than set to research last few turns...which is not that great an option really...i go set to food. with 8 cities in a 135 turn game...that is generally 8+ pop...or at least 1 per city extra to your points in last 5 or so turns...rather than one or 2 techs 4- basically none of these posts have anything decent in regards to strategy. little bit of knowledge...but nothing really worth while. Edit:- Except the stack idea with Great Artist on border city. 5- 135 turns 2 city elim cton should be scoring 1000+ to even have a chance of second to first... 6- random civs means no one strategy is going to be effective in games. each start is going to have to dictate strategy based on horses, iron, copper, hills, forest, food, rivers, and civ. not to mention what your neighbors have as well. 7- no one here has talked about unit vs unit understanding...like don't use such and such a unit on such and such a unit...or promotions and what is more useful that others and so on. which incidentally is going to be a major decider in whether you even survive against some aggressive players 8- smothering workable strategic city squares is fairly common...so knowing how to counter this is going to be useful to any one that wants to even make top 100. Teamers rely on this tactic to carry noobs that could not stand up in solo play. 9- specialists in good food cities can keep research up while you are bankrupt...test it out...i have been getting ok research while bankrupt and running 10% research...with scientists in major cities. this is handy for 135 turn games where tech is not going to be a major issue. doing this allows for resources to be assigned to war concerns and can keep the war machine cranking so you can actually hold enemy at bay...if not eliminate them completely 10- if you are on the defensive from the onset...you will likely lose. skill does little to compensate here...initiative like in real combat is everything. 11- never waste troops...so many people seem to attack when just camping if not the best squares then as close to them as you can would be smarter...remember while you have a presence in the enemies position...they must address this...as a primary concern. while you are free to keep building/expanding/producing/improving. 12- set up line of sight outposts of troops...purely to have an early warning system. it helps to know there is a few stacks coming to start reshuffling your troops positions to accommodate defense. 13- i find i can concentrate on war tech alone...and still out score most players in cton...this is valuable to be able to do as you can field superior units for defense like longbowmen...and send crossbows/cats/longbow and horse men for last 20 turn city kill. if all they have is axes/horse/swords/spears...they will lose many troops or a city...have a second stack of faster horse to harass them and pillage while main attack force moves in. 3 stacks are ideal to use...one fast...and 2 main city killers... 14- 135 turn...dont bother with religion...it is worthless in this time tactically. there are better things to research and worry about. not to say it isn't worth getting if the opportunity is there...just a low priority. 15- experiment with single player...build maps and scenarios...with units to check what positions one kind of unit excels and typically will succeed in attcking...and where they wont. knowing this is going to help a lot. and stop you wasting units. experiment with world builder and especially promotions...which can dramatically alter a units strength in combat for certain roles. 16- settling more ideal city sites is going to in the longer run help. i look for 2 to 3 hills min...food and any additional resources available...anything less it not really viable...unless you really need a certain resource. and do bother to learn to count out the level 2 city limits...and factor this into the area you intend to settle... 17- use the civics wisely...you can keep a happy population without religion and still have superior war tech and production as a side note...one thing that civ 4 really lack in is a resource choice in map choosing...like poor-normal-rich and so on...many maps are very unbalanced with resource spreads...where some get ores and others none. which really offsets the ballance...and a great player can lose a game easy just on this alone. i would also like to see civ 4 include a feature where you can plant agricultural resources if you already have access to one...eg...you have wheat...so once your farming it...you can get a worker to plant it somewhere else...thus improving abilities to work with specialists...like in real life. or horses and cows for that matter...obviously mineral resources would stay the same. but i see this feature as a way to vastly improve the shorter ladder games...and one would see point games really get a boost. well in any case...i am still just a noob to civ 4...and i look forward to really getting the most out of my games...if any one has anything meaningful to share strategy or tactics wise...i would love to hear it. i am by no means the authority on it. but i am learning =NhL=Praetorian
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Jan 19, 2006 8:53:28 GMT -5
People don't generally talk about unit vs. unit mechanics in a point race thread...
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Post by nhlpraetorian on Jan 19, 2006 9:28:54 GMT -5
it is still under the strategy section...and pillaging can adversely effect points. so there is a kind of lateral relevance to knowing such things...
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Post by Avogadro on Jan 19, 2006 10:40:59 GMT -5
Early religion should never be ignored in a points race. The religion provides, culture/hence land, happiness, improvements which can further the gold and research of the civilization who possesses one.
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Post by nhlpraetorian on Jan 19, 2006 11:57:47 GMT -5
i consistently out score most players i play in cton easily with no religion...no wonders...and sweet fa cash. there are alternative ways to culture...happiness can be sorted other ways as well...the research in 135 turns your gonna get from religious building is not at all good enough to warrant a high priority for religion...like i said...i am noobish...but quite well aware of the benefits to religion...and in my assessment...it is a longer game thing...though not to say as i posted that it isn't worth getting if the opportunity is easily there...just for me...a very low priority. 135 turns...average scoring between 1100 and 1300...no wonders...no religion...having better armies...no money...good enough techs...and as many if not more cities...that are defendable...and usually 2 to 3 city kills. sure there are better scores to get...and i am always keen for input. but i find that while others are worrying about religion...i can put resources else where and achieve a good result...aint saying i am the best...but top 40 best is good enough to say my strategy is workable. definitely room for improvement...but i wasn't a beta tester...so the learning curve still is there isn't it.
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