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Post by Sidhe on Jan 25, 2006 0:36:19 GMT -5
He's not far wrong actually as such. You can get a later religion for free(via stonehenge or the oracle), but it won't come that quickly certainly not as quickly as Monotheism and Budhism, religion doesn't just give a boost to happiness it does wonders for culture and therefore health and growth. The early advantage this gives is often underestimated IMO, especially by noobs in teamers.
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Post by Atomation on Feb 13, 2006 18:15:41 GMT -5
I'd say that you have it exactly the opposite, sidhe. The bonuses of religions are overexaggerated by newbs. The more people you have on a team, the less useful the religion is, since it only effects 1 person (immediately, and time is of the essence). If you are in a 5v5, religion is so useless that I would personally never go for it unless that tech was necessary for some other reason. A wonder like stonehenge, on the other hand, becomes more and more useful the more players you have, since it affects more cities immediately upon being built. Just don't let the production of stonehenge curve your building of expansions first, since expanding is alot more important.
As far as going down the upper tech line before the lower, it really depends. The major upside of shooting along the top is that it is a quick path to construction, and catapults are simply amazing in teamers. The downside is you can't grab theocracy or feudalism, meaning your troops can't get the extra upgrade +2 (for non-aggressive civs this is pretty major, since +2 with a barracks making 6/5 opens up the first two +25% bonuses). I personally like using aggressive civs with the upper tech path to fast catas, and doing a power push with the 3axe/3cata/1spear ratio combo (which really has no counter solid enough to stop it, especially if you stick to forest tiles).
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Post by Ellestar on Feb 14, 2006 2:07:00 GMT -5
As far as going down the upper tech line before the lower, it really depends. The major upside of shooting along the top is that it is a quick path to construction, and catapults are simply amazing in teamers. The downside is you can't grab theocracy or feudalism, meaning your troops can't get the extra upgrade +2 (for non-aggressive civs this is pretty major, since +2 with a barracks making 6/5 opens up the first two +25% bonuses). I personally like using aggressive civs with the upper tech path to fast catas, and doing a power push with the 3axe/3cata/1spear ratio combo (which really has no counter solid enough to stop it, especially if you stick to forest tiles). Longbows (with 2 promotions Combat I + Shock because of Vassalage) or crossbows (oracle->metal casting, you don't research these techs so you'll give oracle to another team) should be fine. Good luck knocking them off these forests where you want to move.
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Post by tommynt on Feb 14, 2006 5:50:17 GMT -5
this combo is just waiting to be catad ..
if u speak of combos better never stick more as 2-3 units together or they ll all die to catas
best combo I know is ephant /axe - I wana try to stick a horse to em aswell to counter catas sometime - but often lack of horsebackriding
a religion is a allways nice to have but usually not a gamebreaker - in teamers monarchy is often teched too late - with being in monarchy religion isnt that important anymore and stonehenge in teamers is just big times owerpowered
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Post by Atomation on Feb 14, 2006 13:41:02 GMT -5
Any combo is waiting to be cat'ed tommy....the assumption is if you rush to catas while they are putzing with religion then you can push with that combo. If they choose the top tech path too, then you might as well play defensively and expand till something better pops out.
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 14, 2006 13:41:46 GMT -5
I'd say that you have it exactly the opposite, sidhe. The bonuses of religions are overexaggerated by newbs. The more people you have on a team, the less useful the religion is, since it only effects 1 person (immediately, and time is of the essence). If you are in a 5v5, religion is so useless that I would personally never go for it unless that tech was necessary for some other reason. A wonder like stonehenge, on the other hand, becomes more and more useful the more players you have, since it affects more cities immediately upon being built. Just don't let the production of stonehenge curve your building of expansions first, since expanding is alot more important. Actually I disagree philtrigger. I find if you spread religion quickly as most of the best team players I've seen do, then you tend to expand your borders quicker as a whole, this leads to greater health and tree chopping potential and happier cities. It's not a huge advantage by any means, but since 9/10 times it's one tech away for a religion and a fairly cheap one at that, I say the cost of researching justifies the benefits. Religion means you can use the 25% bonus from organised religion in any city on your team whos state religion is the same,also you need at least one of those techs for monarchy, anyway so it's not as if you wont be going for it at some point. Also if a game goes to a score victory you can almost guarantee that those with the religion will have got it if the others chose to ignore relgion completely or it comes much later, which I think always goes badly personaly. It's not the be all and end all by any means but I certainly wouldn't call it useless even in a 5v5.
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Post by tommynt on Feb 14, 2006 15:34:24 GMT -5
in ren and later eras i try to send a missionar with every settler - in ancient the decision between a axe and a missionar is sometimes a axe ..
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Post by tommynt on Feb 14, 2006 15:39:06 GMT -5
if u stack only 2 units catas are often waisted on em - oh well with its 5 combat catas are stong all time vs all still they die to elephant or horsearcher without doing too much damage to it
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reptile
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Post by reptile on Feb 14, 2006 22:21:01 GMT -5
Not exactly on topic, but closely related:
An epic player should also consider religion as a way to achieve a cultural victory. For example: 2 religions = 2 possible cathedrals in your big cities = +100 % culture per turn. I bet it can beat the space victory if seriously pursued. In the ironman of the first CCC I didnt really go for it (and also had to defend an early attack of a neighbour), still my capital had achieved legendary culture before NoD had their spaceship built. Cities 2 and 3 were already halfway through. I bet there lies unknown potential.
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Post by umbra on Feb 15, 2006 0:33:44 GMT -5
Umbra you have been posting comments about "jews" in a few threads now. Change the subject, this is no place for it. I don't care what you have against certain people/religions but find a board for your commentaries, not a civ board. GCAvogadro
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Post by tommynt on Feb 15, 2006 4:29:15 GMT -5
how does this cult victory work?
if its only much culture in city some homers might win easy
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reptile
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Post by reptile on Feb 15, 2006 9:57:27 GMT -5
3 cities need to achieve "legendary culture". That is in quick game speed a culture of 25000.
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Post by tommynt on Feb 15, 2006 12:29:00 GMT -5
so just 30 homers .. might be more easy as a spaceship
last ironman i think i had about 20 great paople with a nonphi civ - so if u go for mainly homers .. and with trying to grab some religions and maybe this culture chapel (which is useless otherwise) it might be not thta hard to get
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Post by salqadri on Feb 15, 2006 23:20:55 GMT -5
The main reason I like religion is because it is a great source of income, especially if in a Teamer. You can spread your religion to your allies, and for each city, you get one gold. Try it some time if you doubt the usefulness of religion in the late game. The people to whom you spread your religion can go Free Religion for extra happiness, also useful.
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Post by Atomation on Feb 16, 2006 2:18:46 GMT -5
Hmmm, 10 cavalry that I could go win the game with or team wide cities with my religion and net me some gold...such a tough decision!!!
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 20, 2006 6:00:26 GMT -5
That's the point if you go for monarchy you need that religion anyway, your not losing anything just the ability to decide when and where to get a religion and in a ren you most likely got one on your team anyway. Simply hook up your roads to your allies and get a great prophet and build the holy city, then watch the religion spread like wildfire. or use missionaries which are pretty cheap anyway, as soon as they have state religion the same they can send missionaries out too. Usually only one player needs a religion anyway, but I've seen teamers where 2 or 3 do, I've played enough teamers to know that those who have religion and those who don't are better off for little sacrifice, in fact happier cities and more chop potential/health usually means you can get more cavalry than you would otherwise. Religion is key in teamers, I just don't get why people ignore it, I've found it to be pretty fundemental if you'll pardon the pun
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Post by tommynt on Feb 20, 2006 7:55:37 GMT -5
killing is key in teamers
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Post by Sidhe on Feb 20, 2006 13:50:02 GMT -5
hmm he maybe on to something there?
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Post by Lestat on Feb 20, 2006 14:47:31 GMT -5
killing is key in teamers 100% agree. But hard to prove to others. I saw many players talking about tech (we all kno path). They have nice score but they are military weak. Mine point is 33%tech 33%military 33%population. Also, somethimes people dont kno wot are they researching e.g. democracy. Result is red face in cites. I just folowed that recearch bc we won alredy. Why we need democracy in reny 15 turn before end when we need growth duno...
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Post by Atomation on Feb 21, 2006 16:03:53 GMT -5
An idea that extends to all languages within the circle of people that actually WIN.
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