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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 14, 2005 7:08:54 GMT -5
I eeked out a 2nd place finish due to taking a persian city late that was mostly defended by Immortals. Just a note: dont defend with horses. They get no defense bonus and when the opponent has an anti-horse UU its even worse. I think you are mistaken... Chariots don't get defensive bonus, horses do. If i got it right, thats what makes immotals so good. Why else would you pick persia? a 4str chariot uu? Immotal = horse btw... not chariot You pick Persia (which has a Chariot-base UU, because that's what it replaces) because it gets a defensive bonus and because it gets 50% against Archers, effectively making it a Horse Archer vs. standard Archers, two techs and one expensive tech early.
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Cruise
Settler
Dutchy
Posts: 45
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Post by Cruise on Nov 15, 2005 1:48:04 GMT -5
Now here's one that seems very odd to me. Cruise and myself never had problems in c3c. We played each other countless time. Now Cruise and myself cannot even enter the same setup room. An explanation for that? Just noticed this post. Anyway here is a bit more information. I moved to a new appartment in october. Didn't play c3c for half a year. Now i am beind 2 routers!!! First i had a lot of trouble connecting, but i found out how to open my router's ports. I only have trouble connecting when there is a player that doesn't have his ports opened.
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Post by Cereal_Killa on Nov 29, 2005 0:56:35 GMT -5
Hmm I read the 1st 4 points of the OP's post and have to say they are all simply untrue. There is a huge amount of connectivity and OOS problems in the game. And for people that say i have to be a network expert and tweak settings just to play, How come I don't have to do this for other games and internet programs, eh? The multiplayer in this game is WAY shoddy and absolutely nothing like the OP seems to think. Mabye civ3 was worse (hard to imagine), but I never played it so can't comment there. However the state of civ3, good or bad, doesn't change the fact that the technical side of civ4 mp is absolute SH!TE. Having said that, how does this thread belong in the strategy forum?
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 29, 2005 1:47:57 GMT -5
How many games have you played that were peer to peer network games and not server/client games?
CS
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Post by Cereal_Killa on Nov 29, 2005 2:19:03 GMT -5
Quite a few. And to compare to other peer-to-peer applications such as file-sharing and skype (peer-to-peer voice comms made by the kazza ppl), these also have no problems bypassing the peer-to-peer issues that this game seems to have. Granted I don't know everything about the integral workings of the jump from gamespy hosting to peer-to-peer, but my original piont was that I shouldn't have to, to play a game. It's a game. It's meant to be fun. Sure it could be rewarding to get it working, but I don't see any marketing focussing on this aspect
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Post by friedrichpsitalon on Nov 29, 2005 20:40:53 GMT -5
Such as? Be specific. Granted I don't know everything about the integral workings of the jump from gamespy hosting to peer-to-peer... No, clearly you do not.
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Post by Cereal_Killa on Nov 29, 2005 21:29:32 GMT -5
Such as? Be specific. No, clearly you do not. What an informative post. I will take the example of RoN which uses exactly the same system as Civ4 (hosted by gayspy -> peer-peer), and the fact that while it has it's problems, they are less than that of Civ4. It's cool, I'm used to fanboi's flaming and posting great stuff about games that's clearly false. It's what they do best ;D
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Post by Cereal_Killa on Nov 29, 2005 21:40:54 GMT -5
Connectivity in CIVGamespy NAT negotiation allows people behind routers, firewalls, etc, to play with no trouble at all - no opening or closing of ports, zones, etc. And yet there is a thread here on configuring your router ;D Out of SynchHow does "gone" strike you? If someone has a different version than you (meaning modded files of any type) you'll see the OOS return - otherwise, never again. The game has even shown the ability to "resynch" itself if a genuine problem arises temporarily (hotjoining players sometimes cause a 1 or 2 second OOS.) Have you played the game? At all? OOS is a Frequent problem. People have to constantly quit/rejoin games because of OOS. Obviously, it doesn't go away after a few seconds. The Need to Reload vs. HotjoinsReloads? Oh yeah.. I remember those. The only time you'll be reloading a multiplayer game now is if everyone decides to take a break. Hotjoining allows a player to jump right back into the action if they drop. In the meantime, every other player in the game votes to decide between continuing with an AI taking over for that player, waiting in the vote menu, or saving and quitting. Aditionally, players can set up games that start with an AI player, and a human can join in and take over for the AI at any time. Substitutes? Sure - just tell your sub the password you used to secure your Civ at the start of the game and you're golden. No imposters here! Again simply untrue. The game often freezes up and needs to be reloaded. Sure, others can hotjoin and steal someone elses civ since the password feature is unreliable. You invent some nice strats there mate, but inventing 'facts' isn't your strength. ;D
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 29, 2005 23:13:27 GMT -5
Quite a few. And to compare to other peer-to-peer applications such as file-sharing and skype (peer-to-peer voice comms made by the kazza ppl), these also have no problems bypassing the peer-to-peer issues that this game seems to have. Granted I don't know everything about the integral workings of the jump from gamespy hosting to peer-to-peer, but my original piont was that I shouldn't have to, to play a game. It's a game. It's meant to be fun. Sure it could be rewarding to get it working, but I don't see any marketing focussing on this aspect Peer to peer file sharing and VOIP are not time/latency sensitive applications like a TBS game is, so comparing them to CIV is not relavent at all. All the good programming that Firaxis can do can't eliminate every compound firewall/router issue or latency/lag internet issues. CS
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Post by Avogadro on Nov 29, 2005 23:24:10 GMT -5
Fried wrote his posts before the last patch. There are issues as of late. Personally I know nothing about comps so not sure if its the program or all these routers/firewalls. With the p2p takes one player in game to mess it up.
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Post by donaldkipper on Nov 30, 2005 12:37:34 GMT -5
well u could argue its a fundamentally bad decision to use p2p networking but there u go
however, p2p can work alot better than it is doing with civ 4
some of the error handling is atrocious - like complete machine lockup and only way to recover is to remove power from the PC
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Post by Canucksoldier on Nov 30, 2005 17:27:48 GMT -5
Because CIV stays in contact with the GS servers even after the game is launched, it's hard to say if this is contributing to the issues people are having or if it's bad code or just internet or router/firewall issues.
I really believe that CIV's MP code is better and much effort was put into it. But to have hotjoining means the games must be listed while inprogress, unlike C3C. That and the use of GS NAT which was designed to help connections and reduce the number of ports used seems to have it's downside.
And as many people have said GS can just suck at times, and I'm starting to conclude that many of our issues "in the wild" are GS server load issues, we had nearly flawless MP games during the end of the beta test even with a test game of 18 players in fact. Other than a couple known problem testers with problematic routers and wireless conections.
CS
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Post by Avogadro on Dec 2, 2005 9:58:40 GMT -5
Yes we could handle large nice smooth games in beta testing. Because no GS or because we all had our systems set up right? Our mp options proper? This game does work so smoothly when the "right" people are in the game with you.
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Post by salqadri on Feb 1, 2006 15:28:52 GMT -5
rofl. I know its kinda unfair of me to comment now lol, but its so sad to see how fried's initial post was so drastically wrong. I have never had even close to as many problems in any other game as in this game in terms of connectivity. Also, thought I'd answer a few points.
One example of a peer-to-peer game, with much more time-sensitivity than Civ, with much fewer problems, is Age of Empires. In terms of "time-sensitivity", Civ is almost zero, because it is event-based. For example, a warrior can only move once per turn, and one turn lasts almost 30 seconds, which is like infinite time. When the warrior is told to move, this event is broadcast to all other peers. Its like sending one or two packets of simple data. They'd might as well use TCP which allows guaranteed data transmission, but they use UDP (port 2056 UDP) which is the standard for fast-action peer-to-peer games. But in a game like Age of Empires, there are countless of units of all players simultaneously doing different things real-time; no "turns". The original game was, and I believe the new versions still are, though havent double-checked, peer-to-peer based. So this "time-sensitivity" argument Canuck likes to use so much is not very accurate.
Nevertheless, Civ4 runs very smoothly once in motion I believe, as it obviously should given its LACK of "time-sensitivity". But as some ppl previously noted in this thread, that the same ppl that could connect with each other in c3c, are now unable to be in the same staging room. We're at 1.52, and 1.54 in beta, and the problem is still not solved. With me, two days in a row, I have been unable to play a top-10 ladder ppl game just because RedPhoenix was in there, who I cannot be in the same staging room with. Its really unforunate that this happens, and obviously, pisses me off because here I am, wishing I was playing that 6v6. Same thing between me and SPM. Majority of other people: no problems at all. Same case for them, majority: no problems. Doesnt make sense so far to anyone, not even Firaxis, but I know they are working really hard and doing their utter best to solve this issue.
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Post by Canucksoldier on Feb 6, 2006 13:15:21 GMT -5
Unfortunately some conectivity issues will always remain, there are just some router/firewall/bad karma situations that the GS NAT system can't over come. The solution is likely to use a inhouse dedicated match making server, or go the full Server/Client Model, but neither of these are likely to happen soon. So the best we can hope for is that the next patch solves any code issues making the MP system as effiecent as it can be, and then hope GS gives us the service we need. Then perhaps by the time the XP comes out Firaxis/Take2 will have a better overall solution. A simulaneous TBS peer to peer game shouldn't be any harder to code than a RTS game like AoE, but does anyone know of a good MP TBS game that is using GS so that we can make a real comparison?
CS
Edit: And to be fair to F-P, what he wrote was completely accurate based on the late beta versions that we used, there was no way to test the lobby with a full load on the GS NAT system and all our systems worked fine and games were very smooth.
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Post by Earl Harewood on Feb 28, 2006 11:52:09 GMT -5
now back ON topic thanks for the info fried, it was helpful. I think having a break from civ altogether has helped me unlearn all those c3c habits. I even gave my civ3/ptw/c3c copy(s) to a friend so that i wouldnt want to play it lol. I now truly am, a noob and im comin to kick some butt.
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Post by alice on Feb 28, 2006 20:02:19 GMT -5
i have the 6600 as well and it civ ctds my machine often , how do i purge saves ?
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Post by Ellestar on Mar 1, 2006 1:47:01 GMT -5
i have the 6600 as well and it civ ctds my machine often , how do i purge saves ? Try another video driver. Say, in the last friday i installed a last Nvidia driver for my GeForce 6800. I got 2 reboots in Civ (no reboots before that) and one reboot when alt-tabbing to another game in 2 days. I reinstalled back an older driver and it's ok again.
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Post by MMV on Mar 1, 2006 9:02:28 GMT -5
i have the 6600 as well and it civ ctds my machine often , how do i purge saves ? go to "search" under the "Start" button and click on files/folders under files/folders, click on "all files/folders" type in *.sav ( *.sav ) let it search, this will then bring up ALL files that are saved (which all have the file extension .sav) Delete whatever saves you wish NOTE - there ARE a few things under the *.sav search that should NOT be deleted and are NOT game saves, but they are clearly recognizable.
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