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Post by charliebrownparker on Dec 17, 2007 12:51:48 GMT -5
I suggested to change map Zhenon better than baning knights or musketeers. TBG is made for fight and rush not for tech on OCC.
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Post by zzZhenon on Dec 17, 2007 12:58:53 GMT -5
Yeah good idea... maybe 4 corners TBG? It's the perfect map for 2v2 IMHO.
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[KC]Bopper
Worker
The Knight Who Says 'Giddy-Up!'
Posts: 136
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Post by [KC]Bopper on Dec 17, 2007 13:15:01 GMT -5
Yes, I think 4 corners would have been more fun. It was just Road Rush 'n Ruin, no other elements of OCC gameplay really mattered in the end. OMG! I see a bright light! Walk into the light! No Bop! Don't go into the light - it's full of muskets and maces!
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Post by charliebrownparker on Dec 17, 2007 13:25:37 GMT -5
That's exactly the map i though about.
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Post by TheClash on Dec 17, 2007 13:47:04 GMT -5
Yes, I think 4 corners would have been more fun. It was just Road Rush 'n Ruin, no other elements of OCC gameplay really mattered in the end. OMG! I see a bright light! Walk into the light! No Bop! Don't go into the light - it's full of muskets and maces! I think map was ok, teams were far away from each other. Possible problem might be that all want to play with preservs and are wondering now that forest could be nice for an attacking opponent too. Get your explorere out and check powergraph early
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Post by metallian on Dec 17, 2007 15:27:04 GMT -5
Yes, I think 4 corners would have been more fun. It was just Road Rush 'n Ruin, no other elements of OCC gameplay really mattered in the end. OMG! I see a bright light! Walk into the light! No Bop! Don't go into the light - it's full of muskets and maces! Did I not mention that OCC should have set to always peace? Of course everyone mocked me but it would have helped the occ noobs at least compete.
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 17, 2007 17:11:15 GMT -5
The problem with OCC is that a lot of players don't want to build any units and just want to farm scientists.
Civ is all about balance. Balance MFG and GNP. Balance expansion and defense. When you take away that balance and concentrate solely on one thing while neglecting another, you're going to run into trouble. Farm all scientists and you run the risk of dying. Go 100% rush and fail and you're going to lose. We took the gamble that most players want to farm scientists in OCC and it paid off this time. Maybe next time it won't. Banning everything, playing always peace, playing the most defensible map possible ... come on ... just learn how to play a more competitive game.
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Post by DrShot on Dec 17, 2007 17:45:55 GMT -5
Cannot locate the fianl standings for CCC. help?
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Post by metallian on Dec 17, 2007 19:05:47 GMT -5
Why are there so many bans in OCC? Is defending one city that difficult for people? Not only is it just one city it's one city that has 60% borders generally. There really no excuse to die in occ when the defender has huge advantage of knowing for 3 turns where the enemy is going and being able to use flanking to hinder the attackers seige.
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Post by MookieNJ on Dec 17, 2007 20:34:42 GMT -5
Sorry Metallian, you can't really use flank attacks when Knights are banned, unless you plan on building Horse Archers in Renny.
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Post by Death to ALL on Dec 17, 2007 20:54:09 GMT -5
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Post by TheClash on Dec 18, 2007 5:07:22 GMT -5
The problem with OCC is that a lot of players don't want to build any units and just want to farm scientists. Civ is all about balance. Balance MFG and GNP. Balance expansion and defense. When you take away that balance and concentrate solely on one thing while neglecting another, you're going to run into trouble. Farm all scientists and you run the risk of dying. Go 100% rush and fail and you're going to lose. We took the gamble that most players want to farm scientists in OCC and it paid off this time. Maybe next time it won't. Banning everything, playing always peace, playing the most defensible map possible ... come on ... just learn how to play a more competitive game. 100 % agreed, especially when you see the techpath of you opponent in an 2 v 2 OCC
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Post by tommynt on Dec 18, 2007 10:09:58 GMT -5
even when I havent played this event I think I can totaly agree
civ should be about adopting to game situations - even when people dont wont hear that: thats was the huge advantage of civ3 - random situations maybe sometimes even unfair - but people just learned to adopt - there were people killing others while having a tiny desert isle while others had a huge continent. In civ4 games are way too much allways like the same - as soon as setting or gameplay is a bit different to what they are used to every1 screams UNFAIR, NOT BALANCED, NO FUN. This adopting to a setting (sure is occ teamer different then occ cton - should be easy to figure) is something a huge majority of civ4 folk is stilll not able to do, some learned (I think of most the old RAY clan) to adopte, others create strats for known settings (the french clans) and most just play (or have played) allways the same and instead of trying something new they got bored and quit.
cton = anc inland sea teamer = anc tbf or ren inland sea occ = everything interesting forbidden
4 settings out of 1000s of possible ones are set in 90% of games.
so pls instead of complaining afterwards that your "I allways do that and it should have worked this time aswell" didnt work out check out next time before event what might be a good idea and check how game goes on and react to what others do.
As this is comments and suggestions thread I suggest having more events with random factors. For example have for a cton event set 5 possible maps and roll 1-5 to take map if there is no good random map option.
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moineau
Warrior
Administrator
Posts: 330
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Post by moineau on Dec 18, 2007 11:49:45 GMT -5
Totaly agree Tommynt, and that will be worst in the future i fear.
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on Dec 18, 2007 12:42:16 GMT -5
Why are there so many bans in OCC? Is defending one city that difficult for people? Not only is it just one city it's one city that has 60% borders generally. There really no excuse to die in occ when the defender has huge advantage of knowing for 3 turns where the enemy is going and being able to use flanking to hinder the attackers seige. Yes, defending 1 city against a 2v1 rush by 2-move units is hard because the attackers always have an option to attack 2v1 while the defenders cannot defend together against the united stack (build a road to the middle and the choose the less protected target). Which is exactly why knights were banned. Of course, there is always an option to do exactly the same as the rusher - spam units. But (I have to repeat) the whole point of this event was to play an OCC for 2, not a Ren teamer with more resources than you can ever get in the designated Ren teamer (Event 2). So after banning knights we thought we could actually play it as OCC. After the initial phase or research and development, 2-move units wouldn't be such a big deal because the territories would grow sufficiently to slow them down and defending units would get much stronger. But, kudos to you, you found another early 2-move unit to replace knights. I don't know how you managed to lose to LKT, but since the civ choice was anonymous, it was almost too late to do anything about it once we saw what you chose. Plus the surprise factor. Post-game analysis showed that we actually had a chance of defending had we expected it, so this tactic probably won't work again. But the main point about this event is that there seems to be a strict dividing line between thosee who think of it as OCC and those who consider it just another Ren teamer. OCC fans need to come up with ideas how to save this event. Because if we can't play it as OCC - what's the point in keeping it at all? A Ren teamer on a resource-loaded map is just silly.
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on Dec 18, 2007 12:47:29 GMT -5
Yes, I think 4 corners would have been more fun. It was just Road Rush 'n Ruin, no other elements of OCC gameplay really mattered in the end. OMG! I see a bright light! Walk into the light! No Bop! Don't go into the light - it's full of muskets and maces! How will 4 corners help? If anything, it will only help the rushers to attack 2v1 without their opponents having any chance of helping each other? I'm thinking Inland maybe.
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on Dec 18, 2007 12:55:37 GMT -5
The problem with OCC is that a lot of players don't want to build any units and just want to farm scientists. Civ is all about balance. Balance MFG and GNP. Balance expansion and defense. When you take away that balance and concentrate solely on one thing while neglecting another, you're going to run into trouble. Farm all scientists and you run the risk of dying. Go 100% rush and fail and you're going to lose. We took the gamble that most players want to farm scientists in OCC and it paid off this time. Maybe next time it won't. Banning everything, playing always peace, playing the most defensible map possible ... come on ... just learn how to play a more competitive game. This case was not about any balance, but 100% about gamble. You gambled on a surprise tactic and you won. Well, now it's not a surprise anymore. Let's see if you can come up with something new next time - and how well your opponents can adapt to it. I am not a fan of banning things at all. Which is why I don't want Always Peace and didn't even propose banning knights until seeing an overwhelming evidence of them 100% ruining the OCC playstyle. Musketeers are not quite as bad when they aren't a surprise anymore. So I don't think we need to ban them. And that is the main point: as long as there is still a chance of research and development prevailing over a mindless rush - I'll take it.
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Post by DrShot on Dec 18, 2007 19:40:03 GMT -5
I regularly host cton games with: Medi Era + Highlands Map + Unrestreicted Leaders + choose civs anywhere from 80 to 120 turns depending on how many play. Many are reluctant to join, most are repete players after the first time. I know many that could NOT play as they are far to linear in their game 'play'. Keep in mind, this is but a game, relax- enjoy!
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Post by TheClash on Dec 19, 2007 4:45:02 GMT -5
But the main point about this event is that there seems to be a strict dividing line between thosee who think of it as OCC and those who consider it just another Ren teamer. OCC fans need to come up with ideas how to save this event. Because if we can't play it as OCC - what's the point in keeping it at all? A Ren teamer on a resource-loaded map is just silly. Well, i dont like that "ban everything" and bring down the 2v2 on the OCC cton level. The OCC teamer should be different from the OCC cton. The only ban which I still recommend is arabia cause of its camels and the fact that the EQUAL map often places horses, iron or elephants in 3 expansion! If a team spends time to develop a different strategy compared to cton OCC its ok, especially if they take the risk of losing the game if that strategy doesnt work. Remember that in the first two OCC 2v2 reny nothing was banned And it was still fun ;D
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on Dec 19, 2007 10:55:34 GMT -5
But the main point about this event is that there seems to be a strict dividing line between thosee who think of it as OCC and those who consider it just another Ren teamer. OCC fans need to come up with ideas how to save this event. Because if we can't play it as OCC - what's the point in keeping it at all? A Ren teamer on a resource-loaded map is just silly. Well, i dont like that "ban everything" and bring down the 2v2 on the OCC cton level. The OCC teamer should be different from the OCC cton. The only ban which I still recommend is arabia cause of its camels and the fact that the EQUAL map often places horses, iron or elephants in 3 expansion! If a team spends time to develop a different strategy compared to cton OCC its ok, especially if they take the risk of losing the game if that strategy doesnt work. Remember that in the first two OCC 2v2 reny nothing was banned And it was still fun ;D It was? I don't find the knight spam fun at all. In the Ren teamer you at least have to work for it, you might not have the resources, etc. Playing a Ren teamer on an OCC map trivializes it completely. Maybe it should be played on Equal map without Extra resources?
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