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Post by tommynt on Nov 20, 2006 9:52:14 GMT -5
Sad to say but this ccc was no fun at all for me and I think a lot of people agree with me. In end I was so pissed that i stoped playing what might have cost us the title, I kinda sry for my clanmates for that. But I could not stand all the bs anymore.
Lemme go through the events: event 1:
it s a classical and I dont want critizize the settings too much but the civpickfactor is too much of a gamble for me. U pick zulu and win for sure if u got bronze in cap, u pick mali and win for sure if opp dont pick inca tecs and there s no res, u pick egypt and win for sure if there s horse close. I d suggest something vanilla civ3 like, either some1 doing such a mod or both players picking same civs like russia or bismarck or whatever. At least I think it d be more fun if the better player not the better civpicker d win.
event 2: totally screwed settings with this space race bs, the chance for both teams getting into space same turn is like 1/3 as I m kinda sure that decent teams should be about same fast.
event 3: 2nd event with only 1 player and 1. cton. I m not sure what happened this ccc but probability of alliances between clans is just too big for me, even when it s only such a ingamepeace without contacting each other.
event 4: Ironman, taking too long and with prelim it d be even more horrible, still at least 1 event I like.
event 5: Indu, WAY too many turns, we finished 2nd game after more then 4 hours, come on we are no machines, there wasnt even lag. Dont want imagine a full turn game with lags and drops.
event 6: BIG BS SETTING aswell, is there actually some1 who think that this map was a good idea? standard tbf 4-4 or 5-5 is so clearly best setting for anc, I said that now like 56 times.
event 7: Oh well the ren, I wont critizie it as there seem to be load of people who like ren inland sea.
event 8: the worst of em all, a competeitve game with 3 people is just a no brainer. I was so badly dominating but 1 vs 2 is just imposible to win when u r allowed to build only 1 city. 2 just got double units. what happened in this game pissed me of so badly that i think about stop to play civ at all. 1 guy build military ONLY all game while the other who is boarder boarder to him got like 2 units for the 1. 50 turns (easy to figure when checking power graph) then after the 2 unit dude got cavs they miracle attack exactly same turn. In civ and even more in ccc the better team/players should win, rules are allways war with every1. what drshot did to aim only to kill me by building units only while the other guy build no military and therefore totally outscore him is just so unsporty that I nearly cant believe. I wont accuse em of ingame talks for a alliance as I cant prove but what happned was screwed enough even without that. When looking at who advanced to final, all kinda unknown "new" players I expect that kinda same happened in other game.
event 9: on pang u need to set solid coast or there ll be badly screwed landmasses, the landmass in out game vs RAY did look like 2 continents with 3 vs 1 on 1 continent.
event 10: I dont like medi apart that i cant say much about this event.
event 11: rndrnd, it s ok i guess luck was part of it as allways.
event 12: blazing for a 2-2 is so horribly fast, thats no fun for me. Micro is like impossible, communicating with teammate even less.
Overall: event 1,3,5,6, 8,9,12 needs changes badly and some of these events were so badly set that not better team (i dont want say RAY didnt deserve overall win) or players but just the more lucky ones or the more "cheaty" ones did win.
I dont wana criticize SPM as some of the stuff i critizise was maybe not totally clear before ccc. But the settings for event 6 and 8 were so bad that I kinda cant believe it.
Event 8 was by far the worst game of civ I ever played
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Post by eiffel on Nov 20, 2006 10:42:38 GMT -5
Some good ideas in your post, especially same civ in a "vanilla" mirror... we should've thought about it before. But i can't agree to what you say about DrShot. We all know you get angry when you lose, so i can forgive you ;D When DrShot saw he was in a game with you, he decided quite fast he'd have to go for the kill... starting with you. That's what he told me before beginning the game and it seems like the best choice, even more when he had a cap that couldn't go above 11 citizens. When you're in a game against TommyNT, you know you have to try something against him cause he's the one that is supposed to win. Hard time for expert players sometimes... ;D
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Post by Lestat on Nov 20, 2006 10:48:08 GMT -5
I agree for event 8. Its crap 1v1v1v1 and occmodmap is crap to. This event must be 1v1 on C4FTBG or teamer. I got eary chairots atack from 2 peps to and i mised gret lib and got aufwul land. Imagine computer don show me blue circle where to plant at start and i got all wood around settler. Toomy yohan11 is vell know OCC player as Numberonemercury. They are great OCC players. Somethimes join our OCC and u will kno better who they are. Event 10 was not med it was classical and u like it bc i got prety nice tourney page
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Post by Lestat on Nov 20, 2006 10:53:58 GMT -5
Also for pangea or simular map missing subsetings visible onyl by host in stagging room : 1. Shoreline :Random,Natural,Pressed or Solid 2. World wrap : Flat,cylindrical or Torodial 3. Resources :standard or balanced
PLz fix that for all next CCC's to that we dont repeat this again.
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Post by Tony on Nov 20, 2006 12:12:48 GMT -5
No form of cton should EVER be played with 3 players IMO!
1v1 occ is ligtening fast, could easily have been done.
Also 2 occ events in the ccc kinda too much imo, 1 is enough!
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Post by churchill1 on Nov 20, 2006 12:40:35 GMT -5
event 3: 2nd event with only 1 player and 1. cton. I m not sure what happened this ccc but probability of alliances between clans is just too big for me, even when it s only such a ingamepeace without contacting each other. Paranoia.
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Post by mrgametheory on Nov 20, 2006 12:43:06 GMT -5
CCC has always sucked ass and is rediculous. You are pretty much forced to play with newbies that lag and on settings which have major inbalances. Thats why I started Cash games, To Save Us alllllllllllll.
I AM A HERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;D
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Nov 20, 2006 13:19:44 GMT -5
To answer to Tommy about vanilla in event 1, I just want to say that I released a Vanilla mod here long ago, in this aim, in mods section. (don't try to download it, it is for an old version of civ4, and the link is dead since long) I talked about it several times in CCC forum, but nobody listened to me This mod is easy to make, so I can make a new one for Warlords 2.08, if some are interested in it.
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Post by ..A..kazache on Nov 20, 2006 13:23:08 GMT -5
To put my 1 cent in,
1. i like the idea of taken identical civs in a 1v1 on miror map, both get the same starting positions and ressources. So less luck and more skill would be involved. 2. The OCCModmap is the most unfair map from all occ maps (too much luck based map) 3. It was your own fault tommynt that you lost this occ event. You saw that one was building military only and the other not, why you not killed or choked badly one of them? It was also logical from their point of view to attack the leader of the game and that was you. My opponents did the same and i was prepared. Nothing that is surprising or unfair. 3. In the classical event on pangea our team was separated and far from each other therefore the other team was close together (their borders touched each other). DonĀ“t know if you can avoid sth like that in the settings.
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on Nov 20, 2006 14:09:57 GMT -5
I played in both OCC events. Let me start by saying that OCCModMap is a horrible abomination that should never be used again. Starting loc placement seems to be completely random and totally sucks because all the resources are bundled around the start loc and moving elsewhere is too costly. And the resources are random too, you can easily get 3 Silks and not get something really important. The absolute worst case for me was our 2v2 semifinal match vs RaY. They got placed in the middle of the continent right next to each other in the lush green terrain with rivers and all important resources, while we got two distant corners of the map by the sea, and furthermore, Player 1 (that was me, the host) got placed on a 2-tile-wide peninsula with 70% of the territory being the sea (which apparently ate most of the resources). How the hell is it even possible to place player 1 in such a cloaca?! I can understand when the map is too small for the number of players, with high sea level, and the last player or two can get the short end of the stick. But to place the very 1st player like that - it means the script simply SUCKS. This crap is just not possible on C4F_Inland_Sea. Not to mention getting placed in the middle of the other players (which happened to me in the other 2 OCC matches) - Inland Sea guarantees that it won't happen. I thought the point was to win based on skill, not on some random luck. OCCModMap fails to deliver that miserably. With all respect to Mookie and Islandia, the script pretty much gave them a bye. If the roles were reversed in that game, I doubt that even such masters as them could win it. I can post screenshots of that wonderous work by OCCModMap if it can help persuade the TDs to use C4F_Inland_Sea instead.
And what was up with splitting the 12 players in the OCC Prelim into 4 games of 3 instead of 2 games of 6 (like it was done in CTON)? The game with 3 players always sucks. It ALWAYS ends up with 2 ganging up against 1, or 2 fighting each other while the 3rd builds up and outscores them - what does either of that have to do with skill? If the 4x3 setup was forced by the fact that in 2x6 on Balanced whoever got placed in the middle gets screwed - then that's another reason to use Inland Sea.
Please, never again OCCModMap!
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Nov 20, 2006 14:20:51 GMT -5
I released a new version of Vanilla mod. This one is Warlords 2.08 compatible. You can find it here : Link to the modI agree with axius about OCC mod map, it is a nightmare for OCC. We could use C4F TBG instead. It ensures to get good lands, but it also ensures to get a fair location, and to not get one guy between his 2 opponents, and his clanmate on the other side of the world.
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Post by MookieNJ on Nov 20, 2006 14:21:13 GMT -5
event 3: 2nd event with only 1 player and 1. cton. I m not sure what happened this ccc but probability of alliances between clans is just too big for me, even when it s only such a ingamepeace without contacting each other. In any event like this I 100% believe it must be played using the anonymous setting or not played at all. As soon as you remove the 1 clan vs. 1 clan aspect the potential for abuse becomes enormous. Players will not be playing true cton style, they will be gunning for their CCC rivals rather than the players leading the points for this particular game. I agree with Tommy here. A lot of people asked for a bigger team game and honestly the Ancient Era is the best fit for it. Eventually there get to be big stacks involved but not as big as the later Eras and not as fast. I think this event should be altered to 4v4 TBG Standard Size 2 City Elimination. Tommy, I know you're no fan of Ren Inland Sea, but thanks for not criticizing it here! Not going to say the same thing happened to my team, but when you're in a 3 player game, 2 players get River starts and 1 player gets the Lake start, and you can't expand ... well, needless to say you're in trouble. Every single Cottage you plant is 1 gold, and every single Cottage they plant (early on) is 2 gold (or 3 gold if they are Financial). Without the ability to expand this becomes pretty dicey. This event should be played like the cton, anonymous, possibly two 6 player rounds, top 3 advance, and rather than on OCCMODMAP which is a Pangaea it should be moved to C4F Inland Sea -- two neighbors per player to lessen the ganging up factor. Early on the Blazing turn timer is brutal. You can barely look at your land and figure out where to plant ... and if you do and you can plant on the first turn, good luck changing your civics, setting your build, moving your Worker, and trying to do any Micro changes.
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Post by Lestat on Nov 20, 2006 14:28:02 GMT -5
ONE AGAIN MOST BALANCED MAP FOR OCC IS [glow=Yellow,2,300]C4FTBG[/glow].ON C4FINLAND_SEA U CAN GOT SEA CITE AND U CANT REACH ENEMIE IN OPOSITE CORNER. C4FINLAND_SEA OCC WILL BE NICE MAYBE FOR OCC ALWAYS PEACE GAME. Also i posted how crap is OCCModMap in CCC sugestion topic but no 1 listen to me. here
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axius
Warrior
CCCAC Representative
Posts: 220
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Post by axius on Nov 20, 2006 15:17:44 GMT -5
Yeah, C4F_TBG is good too (although I think C4F_Inland gives everybody a river while C4F_TBG doesn't necessarily do that).
Anything that's not based on Balanced.
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Fingolfin
Settler
Mighty and Devilious Rusher
Posts: 10
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Post by Fingolfin on Nov 20, 2006 15:23:55 GMT -5
Early on the Blazing turn timer is brutal. You can barely look at your land and figure out where to plant ... and if you do and you can plant on the first turn, good luck changing your civics, setting your build, moving your Worker, and trying to do any Micro changes. I agree with you Mookie, in our game i got a lake/coastal/no hill land, and was really unable to move my units, micromanage my specialists, and improve my poor land at the same time I think it changed nothing for the game result, but Enzho and I had no fun at all to play in such conditions, like i believe all players of this event Blazing is way too fast for an OCC teamer, and OCCmodmap wouldn't even keep this name anymore. C4F maps are so much better for OCCs!
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Nov 20, 2006 16:14:53 GMT -5
Poor EIffel, we are so rude with his work ;D
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Post by notagoodname on Nov 20, 2006 17:44:58 GMT -5
Poor EIffel, we are so rude with his work ;D Well as was said, the c4f maps that come with his program are much better than his occmodmap. So on one hand we praise his good work (c4f) on the other hand there is valid criticism to the occmodmap. The c4f maps are nearly perfect for an occ game. Especially c4f_inland_sea. It gives everyone stone, marble, metal, horse, some luxuries, food and fresh water. I think it even gives everyone a river. The starting locations are also evenly spaced. Occmodmap isn't nearly as good. And yeah c4f_tbg is good too, bit more war but the start positions arn't evenly spaced out like in inland_sea.
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Post by DrShot on Nov 20, 2006 18:24:12 GMT -5
Sad to say but this ccc was no fun at all for me and I think a lot of people agree with me. Yea, I agree. This is very sad of you to say. I am sure you had no fun at all either, I agree.In end I was so pissed that i stoped playing what might have cost us the title, I kinda sry for my clanmates for that. But I could not stand all the bs anymore. Wow! one player stopped playing. hot clan that loses when one player stops playing. I would imagine they should get 7 or 8 players to replace you for games, even a few more to cover all the whinning and complaining you do, especially when things do not go the way YOU feel they must or should.Lemme go through the events: event 1: it s a classical and I dont want critizize the settings too much but the civpickfactor is too much of a gamble for me. U pick zulu and win for sure if u got bronze in cap, u pick mali and win for sure if opp dont pick inca tecs and there s no res, u pick egypt and win for sure if there s horse close. I d suggest something vanilla civ3 like, either some1 doing such a mod or both players picking same civs like russia or bismarck or whatever. At least I think it d be more fun if the better player not the better civpicker d win. so lets just call this the civ pik match, no need to play it, everyone that plays those long games will enjoy this one. It should only be about 30 min to decide who picks first(and wins event?).event 2: totally screwed settings with this space race bs, the chance for both teams getting into space same turn is like 1/3 as I m kinda sure that decent teams should be about same fast. Space race has always been lame. not sure why everyone is just catching onto this now...event 3: 2nd event with only 1 player and 1. cton. I m not sure what happened this ccc but probability of alliances between clans is just too big for me, even when it s only such a ingamepeace without contacting each other. lemmie guess, more colusion... also I reckon you did not win?event 4: Ironman, taking too long and with prelim it d be even more horrible, still at least 1 event I like. event 5: Indu, WAY too many turns, we finished 2nd game after more then 4 hours, come on we are no machines, there wasnt even lag. Dont want imagine a full turn game with lags and drops. event 6: BIG BS SETTING aswell, is there actually some1 who think that this map was a good idea? standard tbf 4-4 or 5-5 is so clearly best setting for anc, I said that now like 56 times. event 7: Oh well the ren, I wont critizie it as there seem to be load of people who like ren inland sea. Yea, leave this event alone, after all noone else likes any of the other events, just this one...WTF?event 8: the worst of em all, a competeitve game with 3 people is just a no brainer. Hmm, shall we take a moment and look at this rationally or simply let tommy blither on..and on: pairings up. wow only a 1v1v1, only top goes to next round I play tommy and someone named yohan (unknonw to me). I discuss options with a clannie b4 game I state my best strategy is to try to kill tommy(sorry tommy , I thought this was allowed). After which I would hope to(long shot) have enough or be competitive for points to win, that is the goal, right? Civs? this was an instant NO BRAINER two players take a ghandi approach I take Alexander: Philo/ AGGRESSIVE WHY ? to kill with. you telling me you never noticed what civ I took, talk about no brainer... Well, after all I did wait about , what 10 turns till I rushed you, you got a quick unit to save your hide. after that you watched me make a road to you... well your unit on the hill must have seen it, I bet he told you! I was so badly dominating but 1 vs 2 is just imposible to win when u r allowed to build only 1 city. 2 just got double units. How about allowed to build only 1/2 a city? Yea, with grasslands as my top food(no rice- no cow-no wheat-no flood plain- no anything that gave me over a 3 food at all! my city never grew past size 11. you sure "dominated" this game, WOW!!!! My plan seemed better and fortunately I had a plan b4 the game as military was the only option. So, upon reflection I guess I should have killed the second place guy, eh? that would have been really smart I was set to leave and attack with 35 turns left, allowing me enough time to get to each opponent and try a double kill, lofty goals undoubtably. what happened in this game pissed me of so badly that i think about stop to play civ at all. 1 guy build military ONLY all game while the other who is boarder boarder to him got like 2 units for the 1. 50 turns (easy to figure when checking power graph) then after the 2 unit dude got cavs they miracle attack exactly same turn. yikes! you say you checked the power graph? Then why such a suprise when my army, only 35-40 units shows up? In civ and even more in ccc the better team/players should win, rules are allways war with every1. Yea, just like the new civ picking contest event. we will now have the 'better player wins' contest. you died, Yohan went on to win the overall event, I guess you were not the better player anyway.what drshot did to aim only to kill me by building units only while the other guy build no military and therefore totally outscore him is just so unsporty that I nearly cant believe. untill about 40 turns left our two scores(yohan and I) were not that far apart. you must have been teasing your mullett and stroking your ego to have noticed. I stated clearly before the match to someone what my intentions were, I think I had the right ones, it happened as I thought it would. had I land worthy of supporting a city for growth, well I had a philo civ I could have pointed, np. Fortunately, I prepared: FIRST.I wont accuse em of ingame talks for a alliance as I cant prove but what happned was screwed enough even without that. When looking at who advanced to final, all kinda unknown "new" players I expect that kinda same happened in other game. You obviously changed your mind, you sure as s hi tcalled me a cheater in that game. honestly I was very taken aback by it. I have seen you get a little irratated before, but this? I will now look upon you entirely different, not in a positive way. I can see how this has ruined your life, am I sorry? Not at all. I see you had to write this bitch thread befor you jump off a cliff or something terrible. grow up, this is 'civilization', not 'spoiled little kids adventures' get civilized, grow up. I don't hear people complain you cheat when you win. I don't see people say you cheat when they see high % or skill rates of you or others...
I first saw you two sending cav back in forth S of my boarders (as you were each on either side of me) fighting I suppose, there were damaged units after all. I was 3 turns from guilds when I saw this. what should I have done, concede? Quit? nope I will stick with my well prepaired plan. BTW, yohan only had 6-7 cav at your city when I showed upwith almost 30 cats , mostly double and many triple upgrades I would ahve taken your city that was host to 12 units tops with or with out him being there. Did it ever occur to you that maybe he was going after the guy with 350 points more than he had... 700+ more thna I had. That would make sense. I would think, after all you were watching the power grow, why not take a turn or 5 out and make a scout? a few units? you had an insurmountable lead with 30 some turns left making some units would be wise( it was proven so).
event 10: I dont like medi apart that i cant say much about this event.
event 11: rndrnd, it s ok i guess luck was part of it as allways.
event 12: blazing for a 2-2 is so horribly fast, thats no fun for me. Micro is like impossible, communicating with teammate even less.
Overall: event 1,3,5,6, 8,9,12 needs changes badly and some of these events were so badly set that not better team (i dont want say RAY didnt deserve overall win) or players but just the more lucky ones or the more "cheaty" ones did win.
I dont wana criticize SPM as some of the stuff i critizise was maybe not totally clear before ccc. But the settings for event 6 and 8 were so bad that I kinda cant believe it.
Event 8 was by far the worst game of civ I ever played
Yea, and you blame everyone else.
Overall I think the 3C was good. There are always issues as far back as I recall in 3C history. Congrats to the winners and everyone that enjoyed themselves participating. After all, enjoyment is the reason we play, no? I smoked out of the ren to a fast , nicely executed naval/ land attack in the ren game. I thought I knew the opponent well, he switched tactics and went for a fast kill(we later thought it was their plan fromt he start). We had a plan to go science then mill, they went straight for kills, had we done the same the outcome may had been different. I was upset at myself, I posted no threads of ill towards anyone, I accepted defeat. Well, too bad tommy is leaving civ, I doubt the game will change because of your departure. from font 2 to font 3 is a great deal larger I see :\
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Post by mansurji on Nov 20, 2006 20:58:00 GMT -5
(Event 8) When looking at who advanced to final, all kinda unknown"new" players I expect that kinda same happened in other game. they're perhaps uknown to you, but this dont mean necessary they're "new". You suggest that they don't deserve to have been where they've gone and that they're not as skilled as you and the guys you know, but well Yohan11 and Jibs are well known OCC players on French ladders, and it surprised noone there to see em both on final. Jibs is even the former CCC's OCC winner.
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Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
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Post by Juni on Nov 20, 2006 23:30:58 GMT -5
Agreed. I'm fed up with guys who say all the time that non regular C4P players are noobs. This is just ridiculous. Fortunately, these people are only few, they just are those who talk the more...
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