|
Post by MMV on Nov 18, 2006 17:30:31 GMT -5
LKT 1 point WHY ?as in ALL competetive sports - 1st place 2nd place 3rd place 4th place in this case, 1st place was taken by ONE clan 2nd was TIED between TWO clans, consequently the points (or purse/winnings in regular sports) from 2nd and 3rd are added together and split between the 2nd place tied finishers that leaves 4th place unto itself (1 point, sorry) It would be the same thing if 2 were tied for 3rd place; you combine the points for 3rd and 4th place and split them between the two teams that tied for 3rd. who ever was in 4th place, would then drop to 5th place (in this case, no points)
|
|
|
Post by whitebull on Nov 18, 2006 18:30:57 GMT -5
LKT 1 point WHY ?as in ALL competetive sports - 1st place 2nd place 3rd place 4th place in this case, 1st place was taken by ONE clan 2nd was TIED between TWO clans, consequently the points (or purse/winnings in regular sports) from 2nd and 3rd are added together and split between the 2nd place tied finishers that leaves 4th place unto itself (1 point, sorry) It would be the same thing if 2 were tied for 3rd place; you combine the points for 3rd and 4th place and split them between the two teams that tied for 3rd. who ever was in 4th place, would then drop to 5th place (in this case, no points) They didn't finished 4th, the lost in semi-finals. In rules, they have 2 points. I guess SPM already accord them those points
|
|
|
Post by cankaban on Nov 19, 2006 5:50:41 GMT -5
in my opinion it should be: 1-MDR 2-..A.. 3-RaY 4-LKT why second place tied i couldnt understand it
|
|
|
Post by cankaban on Nov 19, 2006 5:53:33 GMT -5
you should give some of mdr's points to ray,why you gave another clans points???
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Nov 19, 2006 7:46:21 GMT -5
in my opinion it should be: 1-MDR 2-..A.. 3-RaY 4-LKT why second place tied i couldnt understand it Did you not read the first post? The game has no built-in mechanism to deal with a tie to a victory condition. RaY and MDR completed the Spaceship on the same turn, but the game just checks the victory condition for each team in order of their team numbers as assigned in staging. As the host player is always "team 1," whoever the host is will always win a tie to a victory condition. It would be totally unfair to penalize RaY when they completed the Spaceship just as quickly as the MDR team just because MDR happened to host this event in GameSpy. As it is they stepped aside and did not drag this out so that MDR could compete in the finals -- it was already like 6am over in France and they weren't going to make the poor guys stay up all morning!
|
|
|
Post by GERMANIA on Nov 19, 2006 7:50:24 GMT -5
to end this fast, it doesn't care if some one made the wonder at the same turn, its like if two make pyramid at the same turn, but only one gets it, the team who made first space race wins the game so easy.
it doesn't care if Ray would have made space race in 4 t ore at the same turn. The game decided that MDR won, and we should respect that since it is a part of the game so it is a joke that they get now 5 points because its on the same turn!!!!
My question is to all shell we end every game because two teams made a wonder at the same turn ore should we go one ad say the game decided who wins the game.. how we do about every thing else!!
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Nov 19, 2006 8:21:07 GMT -5
Back when OCC islands was popular, about 2 months ago (until people relized its a race for pyramids), on 2 seperate occasions i got pyramids the same turn as somsone else, which pretty much decided the game, not only did i miss out on pyramids but what about the 20 turns i wasted building it (no gran, no slaving, no library, no forests, no cottages, no other wonders ...nothing).
If i had sent the save to admin would i have got a win for the game? This is exactly the same thing, im getting penalized for complete a wonder in the same time!
CIV is meant to be played turn based, but due to time restrictions this is not possible, so who gets great wonders/projects when they are built on the same turn is decided by the game.
Ask anyone that plays alot of OCC, how much of a pain in the A$$ this is, but you have to get on with it.
What if i lose a game by say 5 pionts and i get a wonder same turn, am i meant to sent my saves to admin? or does this rule only apply to certian people?
Before admin make any decsions they should think about it logically in the context of the game rather then simply what is fair, CIV is not a fair game.
Let me rephrase that sim-moves CIV is not fair, but the rules must be consistant and logical !!!
|
|
|
Post by knupp on Nov 19, 2006 10:21:32 GMT -5
Before the patch in classical I would almost always get the oracle on the same turn as somebody else. When I didn't it did I send my save to an admin? No..while normal wonders are important they are not a victory condition. If you miss out on a wonder because of a 50/50 chance you can come back and win it in the end. But when two teams meet the same victory condition on the same turn..the person with the team number 1 gets the win? How is that fair?
This game was extremely intense to see who would get the ship first. We tied..end of story. I think the points we got fairly represent a tie.
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Nov 19, 2006 12:22:27 GMT -5
You're talking about a Wonder vs. a Victory Condition here. Building a Wonder is a decision you make -- you know that someone else could be building it, you know you could miss it, and you could be building something else. The developers added a mechanism to break a tie in MP -- the RNG. A Victory Condition is the end game. The developers did not add a mechanism to break a tie in MP, it simply goes to the team with the lowest team number from the staging room. In this instance, since MDR hosted the game, therefore they won. And that's a fair solution?
|
|
|
Post by eiffel on Nov 19, 2006 13:07:35 GMT -5
From what I know (someone in the french ladder looked at the program code), it is not the team number in staging room... it's the RNG at beginning of turns that give a team the priority for a space victory. So RNG is still here for the space victory.
|
|
|
Post by deviousdevil on Nov 19, 2006 16:41:00 GMT -5
From what I know (someone in the french ladder looked at the program code), it is not the team number in staging room... it's the RNG at beginning of turns that give a team the priority for a space victory. So RNG is still here for the space victory. So should RaY get those extra points and which will if they win last event win them CCC?
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Nov 19, 2006 19:51:39 GMT -5
I personally dont see any diffrence between this and a wonder, sure in most cases you can live without a wonder, for example if i get hendge same turn in a cton, im annoyed but life goes on. But some are critical, going back to my OCC Islands example if you race for prymids and you build it same turn, you have lost there are no 2 ways about it. This is even more true in a 1v1, which teamers kinda are, as you cant finish 3rd.
The only diffrence is you lose slowly, attacking on islands is not an option because you will be beaten in science soo badly youll be on knight when the cavs/infantry land. You can arugue OCC islands is a stupid game, but it was popular for a while and i know a couple of people that still host it.
You say, building a wonder is a choice and you know the risk of losing it, so your telling me space race is not a choice? If what eiffel writes is true, which it probally is, then the same mechamism is used to handle both wonders and space race, makes the 2 even more alike.
How is this diffrent to 2 guys building a wonder on the last turn and 1 getting gold and the other getting pionts and winning??
The only diffreance is losing space race is a little more painful because the victory is closer!
We can take this one step further, what about when you get the artist from music the same turn? Should we deduct the calture bomb pionts at the end of the game? what about when you get a great eng use it on a wonder and somsone beats you to it? What i have mentioned above may not be critical 90% of the time but it is alteast 10%. The only diffrance is these effects happen further down the line.
For god knows how many years admin have always dealt with gray areas, with 'whatever the game decides', which is the best way, as gray areas are impossible to police!!! Sure you get bitten in the @rse from time to time but thats life. Now next time any of the above ever happens, applying the same logic (lets try and be fair to everyone), they will have to calculate what would have happen if the other guy got the wonder. Obviously no one expects them to do that, thats why i said 'they should think about it logically'.
But dont think this post is about RAY v MDR, it just happen to occur in this game!
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Nov 20, 2006 6:07:03 GMT -5
From what I know (someone in the french ladder looked at the program code), it is not the team number in staging room... it's the RNG at beginning of turns that give a team the priority for a space victory. So RNG is still here for the space victory. Eiffel, I'm not sure on this one, here is what Juni wrote: So let me explain how it really works. There was a point on which I was right : it is not random. Actually it is worse than that. It is very simple. At the beginning of each turn, the game checks every victory condition for every team. In the case of space victory, when it finds a team who has completed all parts, it put it as the space race winner. So the only thing that determines who wins is... the number of the team. The team with the lowest number wins... If you want to check it yourself, it is in CvGame.cpp SDK file, in the CvGame::testVictory() function, starting at line 6977. The test for Project victory (or space race) is at line 7289. After the game, Juni originally thought it was something else and told us to reload the save, complete the last turn, and see what happens. Every time we tried this it said MDR won despite it being a tie to the completion of the ship. If it truly were random, either we had the unluckiest rolls of the dice and lost the 50/50 every single time we tested it, or it was, as Juni said, determined at the launch of the game by team number.
|
|
Juni
Worker
Posts: 137
|
Post by Juni on Nov 20, 2006 6:43:09 GMT -5
What I surely now is that teams are checked in a certain order. And when the game finds a team that has reached the space race vitory, this team is set as winner, end the game stops checking. So if another team has finished the spaceship too, the game will never know it and there is no choicie bteween teams. The first team found wins. As I didn't find any clue on how this order was determined, I thought that programers chose the easiest way (like they often do ) and that this order was just following team numbers. If what Eiffel says is right, this order is different for each turn, and determined by the RNG. This way, one team is chosen arbitrarly, but we can't know who will be before. In other words, RaY may have won this game if the random seed had been different. Winning because of a determined team numer of because of a random team number is not very different. It would have been different if the criterium was some game mechanism, but it is not. It is a shame that RaY won the CCC using these points, because it is very rude for GOD, but I think that admins should keep their decision. Whatever they choose they hurt someone, it is obvious. So IMO, what is done is done, and let's congrats RaY, they deserve the victory, with or without these points. Instead of arguing on this case, we should now discuss about a rule to avoid this mess next time.
|
|
|
Post by notagoodname on Nov 20, 2006 6:51:19 GMT -5
Ahhh. If it's random then that makes a bit of a difference i feel. The random number generator is an accepted part of the game in all other aspects, why not just let the random number generator determine the winner in this instance?
Probably should have just call it a draw for the God and Ray guys in the end
1 point victors after being given 3 bonus points just doesn't feel right to me...
|
|
|
Post by MookieNJ on Nov 20, 2006 14:34:35 GMT -5
As I didn't find any clue on how this order was determined, I thought that programers chose the easiest way (like they often do ) and that this order was just following team numbers. If what Eiffel says is right, this order is different for each turn, and determined by the RNG. This way, one team is chosen arbitrarly, but we can't know who will be before. In other words, RaY may have won this game if the random seed had been different. I'm not sure how it works, but every time we loaded the save and completed the second to last turn, it went on to award victory to MDR. If it were determined by RNG prior to each turn, you'd think that RaY would eventually win the coin flip and be determined the winner ... both teams completed the Spaceship on the same turn but every single reload we did MDR won.
|
|
|
Post by eiffel on Nov 20, 2006 16:00:46 GMT -5
Maybe it's decided at the end of last turn... have you tried to load 2 turns before victory ? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Tony on Nov 20, 2006 16:07:44 GMT -5
isnt RNG predetermined? If anyone has a PBEM game they would now no matter how many times you attack the ourcome is always exactly the same. For example warrior atacks warrior, the winning warrior will ALWAYS have 1.2str after the battle if thats what the game decides. Some with poping huts, it will always give you exactly the same thing. (Obviously i only know this when doing tests, not in games, just for the record )
|
|
|
Post by zzZhenon on Nov 20, 2006 16:58:01 GMT -5
I'm just glad we have 5 strong clans that we have problems like this. We were all so close in score, this has got to be one of the most exciting CCCs of all time.... granted there were issues this time around, but it was no less exciting!
In civ3 we had..... what? 2-3 top clans each CCC?
|
|
|
Post by lporiginalg on Nov 20, 2006 17:40:54 GMT -5
Well this was a really poor ruling imo. If in fact the first post of this thread is correct and team 1 has priority then I could see a need to change many rules, or quit playing such a stupid game all together, but I find that very hard to believe and am leaning much more to the rng to determine order at the start of every turn theory (wasn't that part of the 1.6 patch?)
It would make alot more sense to just go with the game's decision than start throwing extra points into the mix. I also agree with Tony that there's no difference between a final victory condition rng and any other rng throughout the game. If I lose a game cause my city dies on the last turn when I'm ahead in points because it loses a 50/50 battle, should I be given extra points? I mean i was winnign, but the game gave the last coin toss to them. Of course I shouldn't win, that's a load of crap. MDR won that match, the ruling was hasty and poor and I just wanna give props to the real winners of this CCC, the GOD clan.
|
|